thousand dollars. Mr. Duncan offered to take the contract off Miles' hands for eighty-two thousand dollars.

Q-As I understand you, the State has received, in labor and material on account of the contract up there at Folsom, ninety-eight thousand dollars, for which they have paid only eighty per cent? A. That is what I understand, but I don't know.

Mr. Chapman-What was the whole contract price to be paid for this whole work?

A. One hundred and forty-nine thousand three hundred and ninety-two dollars.

,,

Q-How much has been paid of that amount?

A. Seventy-nine thousand dollars has been paid. Q-That includes for extra work?

Mr. Lambourn-It is your estimate that it will cost ninety-six thousand dollars to complete it.

He fixed the prices to each arti

cle and I set them down, and together we computed it in that way. What he said was, that to complete it with a certain class of articles, would cost ninety-six thousand dollars; but with a better class, it would cost one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars. Q.-What is your estimate that it will cost?

A. I have never made a detailed estimate on my own hook alone. Mr. Clunie-As the contract has been carried on occasional differences developed themselves, and that extra work was commenced to be done?

A.-I will state regarding the nature of the extra work. When we excavated for a foundation we thought we would have a granite bed. We found under the cell-house, about one hundred and twenty-five feet from the main building, that we had to excavate about sixtyeight feet, for a body of loam was there that we could not have got a foundation on. The result was we had to allow that much extra wall. The lower wall was sixteen feet deep; then it ran off to nothing. That is almost the entire extra work.

Q-The contractor and you differed as to extra work?

A. Yes, sir; I thought he claimed too much; I insisted upon it, and` the matter was brought before the Directors. I only allowed him ten thousand dollars, and he claimed more, and we had a fight, and they sustained me in the fight. The Board had me there to make those estimates, and I did it.

Q. Do you know the amount of extra work he claims to have done?

Q.-All of the payments for this extra work came out of the contract price-out of the money appropriated?

Mr. Lambourn-You were subject to the estimate made by the contractor on the schedule. Now, were these prices cheapened by the Board?

A.-No, sir; the work was to be done according to the estimate; you will see by his bid.

The Chairman-He says here [reads from the bid].

Mr. Clunie-Was the schedule changed during the proceeding of the building?

Mr. Chapman-By what means was this extra work arrived atby a new contract?

A.-No, sir; it was arrived at by taking the prices of the same class of work in the schedule.

Q-In paying for that extra work, did you deduct the twenty per cent.?

A. Yes, sir, The extra work consisted of the wall foundation. I don't remember that I allowed for anything but this wall.

Q.-You said that you based your estimates on the schedule price given you by the contractor-that was the price by which the contract was carried on?

A. Yes, sir. Before he got the contract, he gave me a detailed 'estimate of the different items of the work.

Q-And when he got that bid accepted, you took that schedule as your basis for paying him every month?

A. Yes, sir; that is it.

Mr. Bagge-What can the whole building be finished for, according to Miles' estimate?

A.-I believe his entire estimate was four hundred and forty-three thousand dollars. He was the lowest bidder on the entire work.

Mr. Clunie-Are you one of the creditors of Miles-have you any interest in this?

A.-Not any interest except this: I signed a note with Miles for seven hundred dollars before he failed, and of course, I am held on that now. I signed it as a kindness to him.

Q.-All these estimates were made before you went on his note? A. Yes, sir; just before he failed. The note shows for itself; it was about a month before Miles failed. He failed on the tenth of September, and the note was due on the twenty-second.

Q-All of your estimates were approved by the State Board of Prison Directors and allowed?

A. Yes, sir; I believe they were. I expect they paid him on all my accounts.

Mr. Clunie-Now, as to what the work done on that building was worth. You have stated that you based your monthly reports on the schedule. Now, leaving the schedule out of sight and going on the merits of the work, what do you estimate it at?

A.-I estimated it solely on the schedule; I went solely by the estimate on the schedule. There has been a good deal of outside talk about this thing being done cheaper, and the estimate being too high, by Mr. Livermore and some other parties.

Mr. Clunie-He says that Miles had received too much.
A.-That was his opinion; I felt in duty bound to pay according

to the schedule. I met him at the time the prison started.

[Here Mr. Livermore made a statement disclaiming that he ever either directly or indirectly, made a bid to build the prison.]

Mr. Clunie [to Mr. Ball-You don't know what amount of extra work you did allow?

A. It is all in the report; that will show it.

Mr. Cornwell-With reference to this work, to complete it, you say that the estimates ranged from eighty thousand to one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars; that shows, then, approximately, that it would take one hundred thousand dollars more, in all one hundred

and eighty thousand dollars, to accomplish what this man agreed to do for one hundred and fifty thousand dollars-including extra work, one hundred and sixty thousand dollars?:

Q-So there has been a difference against the State of twenty thousand dollars; so there has been a mistake as to the amount of work done and to be done?

A.-The amount allowed has been allowed on Miles' schedule; as to what the bid aggregates, that is already stated in the contract. Mr. Clunie-Before he got the contract Mr. Miles could have had no object, when these estimates were made, in setting higher figures opposite each item, before he did any work at all?

Q.-Now, some people say, that for that work that has already been done, these estimates were too high; and yet there was nobody, when the contract was to let, that would take the contract at that time at his figures.

A. He was the lowest bidder-over one hundred thousand dollars less than anybody else.

Mr. Chapman-In making this bid, did he bid in one gross sum, or did he bid on the different parts?

Q.-The lowest aggregate was Miles'. Now then, how did Miles' bids compare with the others on the different parts?

A. He was about ten thousand dollars the lowest,

Mr. Chapman-In these two sections that were let Miles, the contractor segregated the different items; now, as to his estimates on these different items, how did they compare with the others?

A. He was about fourteen thousand dollars lower on each of them, all the way through, than any other bidder.

Q-Now, each of these sections was separately bid for; now, then, how did Miles' bid compare with the others on the first section? A. He was about fourteen thousand dollars lower on the items. Q.-Did that run all the way through?

A. Yes, sir; at the end he was away below.

Mr. Clunie-In comparison with other figures, he took the contract a good deal lower than anybody else-lower than any other man? A.-Yes, sir.

Q.-If you were at Folsom, could you make an estimate in one day so as to tell us whether that work is worth ninety-eight thousand dollars or not?

A.-I would prefer you to send some one else; you might think I was biased.

A.-I don't know what the Directors did with them; they were left with them; I don't know but they were withdrawn with the check for five thousand dollars they had on file. I have a copy of them in San Francisco, which I put in a book for reference.

Mr. Cornwell-Now, as to this sewerage matter. It was brought to our attention the manner in which those cells were arranged. A.-No, sir; I think myself that that arrangement is correct. They are less liable to be injured in the cells than they would be in the corridors. Those cells were built that way, and they would never require to be changed.

Q-Yes; but if any damage did happen to the pipes, how are you going to get at them so as to repair them?

A. They could be repaired by taking out a few stones, and going in there and fixing them. If the work of laying them is properly done and superintended, they never will be injured. The proper way to lay that sewer is in a concrete bed.

Q-Is that provided for in the specifications?

Q-But they are not laid that way?

A.-The work was stopped, I would not accepted it.

WILLIAM JOHNSTON, Sworn.

Mr. Cornwell-What connection have you had with the Branch Prison at Folsom?

Answer-I was State Superintendent.

Q-Are you familiar with the work that has been done there? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How does it compare with the plans and specifications under the contract?

A. Well, it is a near enough compliance to make the building sufficiently strong, all that was necessary for strength.

Q.-Are there any deviations, from the contract; and if so, please designate them?

A-There are no deviations from the plans and specifications, except in so far as the work is not so well done, not in strict compliance. with the plans and specifications.

Q-In what respect?

A.-The strength is equal. But he dispensed with a good deal of cutting that is not absolutely necessary to give it more strength, but probably would adorn it a little more.

Q-Nothing, however, to injure the utility of the structure?
A.-No, sir.

Q.--Have you the ability to estimate what the completion of that would cost?

A. Yes, sir; I think I have. I have never done so, however, only on certain portions.

Q-Have you ever tried to make an approximation? A.-No, sir; I never have. Where you would incur the greatest cost would be the cells, which have to be done entirely.

[Mr. Johnston's estimate, marked "Exhibit A," was put in in evi dence.]

Mr. Clunie-What do you think it would cost if that labor was done by convict labor-how much would that reduce it? What the value of the materials, as distinguished from the value of the labor?

A.-That would depend upon circumstances, as to whether the were skilled laborers or not that were employed. If new stock wer to come in as apprentices, it would take more money than if ha you men used to the work.

Q.-I mean prisoners.

A. It would certainly take a good deal of money to prepare place to keep them. It would cost more, because you would have arrange cooking apparatus and everything else.

Q-Admitting that they could provide work, what would be

A. These items are not separated; they are taken as a whole, based upon an estimate for white labor.

Q-Now [referring to Exhibit A-portion of contract uncompleted], here is fifty-nine thousand seven hundred and forty-nine yards, at one dollar and seventy-five cents. What is the labor worth for that?

A.-It is worth just what is given there in figures.
Q.-That is, for labor entirely?

A.-No, sir; that is for everything; preparing the material and completing the building, one hundred and four thousand five hundred and sixty dollars-that is, for fifty-nine thousand seven hundred and forty-four cubic yards.

Mr. Cornwell-As I understand, that would be all for labor, as the material is there on the ground, and the only separation would be as to preparing it?

A. I don't think there would be a great deal saved in that respect. In the first place, the material as it is has to be quarried. Mr. Cornwell-Now you estimate on taking the stone out of the quarry; now, how about the sand and cement?

A. That includes everything-making the preparation, quarrying the stone out, getting it into its place, putting it into the job-into the building, and completing that entirely.

Mr. Clunie-Sixteen hundred lineal feet of pipe that you have to buy?

A. Yes, sir. That is on the ground at the present time. That seven thousand dollars includes that material. Q.-So this is for labor alone?

A. Yes, sir.

Q.-Flagging and cement, one hundred and fifty thousand square feet, at forty cents-that is for work that has to be done there? A. Yes, sir; that has to be done entirely. You would have to quarry it.

Q-Would you have to buy the lime and cement for that con

crete?

A-That includes lime, cement, and labor.

Q. How much lime would you have to buy to get that fifteen thousand square feet in condition?

A. The lime is a very small part of the cost. The stone is what would cost, and the cement.

Q.-How much lime do you need in that six thousand dollars worth of work?

A.-Well, in building a wall, a barrel of lime would build about one hundred feet.

Q.-For a hundred cubic feet you would want one barrel of lime? A. Yes, sir; in a wall, but not in flagging, where you use cement. Q-Just see what the labor and the materials would cost for this wall?

A.-It would take about twenty-five to twenty-eight cents to cut that stone; to get the stone laid would take about thirty cents; deduct the balance, and it would leave ten cents for lime and cement. On that six thousand dollar job, it would take about four thousand three hundred dollars to cut that stone.

Q-Is there cement there on the ground?

A.-Yes, sir; a large amount-between two hundred and three hundred barrels.

Q-Is that enough to do this job?

A. Yes, sir.

Q-Deduct the cement, and let us see what it would still be? How much would it cost for lime, the cement being already there? A. The lime would bear a very small proportion to the cost. Q.-How much would it cost for cement?

A.-Well, I think, to put in the concrete under that contract would cost over ten or twelve hundred dollars.

Q.-For lime?

A.-For cement. The lime bears the smallest proportion. After cutting that stone, to lay it by white labor would run that flagging up to thirty-one or thirty-two cents.

Mr. Cornwell-The idea is to segregate the amount of labor and material, to see how much of that six thousand dollars goes for labor, and how much goes for material?

A. The labor on the stone would be the cutting first. That might be perhaps twenty-eight or thirty cents. Then, by white labor laying it, would increase it about four cents.

Q.-The idea is this: Here is an item of six thousand dollars. You say it takes about a barrel of lime to a hundred feet of this? A. In a wall; yes, sir. It would require close calculation to find how much lime would be needed for eight inches of concrete. I know it would take about forty cents to put in that flagging. For it would take thirty cents for cutting; then some more to lay it downsix or seven cents more; then the balance would go for the composition of the concrete. The composition would be about three cents a foot in that fifteen thousand feet, or perhaps more than that. Q-Stone is worth nothing until it is quarried ?

A.-No, sir.

Q.-Did you see what lime was there?

A.-I don't know how much lime is there; I saw a good deal in the lime-house, but Christie says it belongs to him; it would have to be bought.

Q.-Now, how much would it take for each of these items?

A.-It would take about thirty-three cents for the stone-cutting and laying it down there; the balance would go for the lime and cement. Q. How did you arrive at that six thousand dollars?

A. We allow forty cents for flagging like that. You might ask me for instance, how I know that stone is worth one dollar and twenty five cents; we know from experience that stone like that costs so much, but to separate a particular part into items, and how much there would be for each I could not do without calculation. I kno it would take forty cents to do it, the same as I know it would tak one dollar and seventy-five cents to put in that stone.

Q-Now, as to the lime and cement, what relative proportions would you use?

A. The specifications will show that. [Reads from the specific tions.]

Q. How much would it cost for the cement, and how much for th lime?

A. It would cost about four dollars for the cement up there, and about two dollars, for the lime.

Mr. Cornwell-Now, then, the labor would be four thousand nine hundred and fifty dollars, and that would leave one thousand and fifty dollars for lime and cement-one-third of the one thousand and fifty dollars being for lime and the balance for cement?

A.-There is cement there; I do not know who it belongs to. Mr. Ball says he was allowed for it, and if he was, it belongs to the State; but I don't know that.

1

Q-Now, the girders, camber-plate, straining-rods, etc.-that is all material?

Q.-Joisting, that is all material?

Q-Doors for cells, plumbing, water-pipes and connections-all material?

Mr. Clunie-Your statement is made upon the basis that there is no material there?

A. Yes, sir; upon that basis that it is all to be bought.

Q.-You know that there is cement there, and lime, and locks there?

A.—I don't know that there is, but I understand so; I have seen the lime and cement.

Q.-Is it already there?
A.—It was when I left.
Q. When did you leave?
A.-Last Friday.

Q.—You never saw the locks?

Q.-You don't know whether they are there or not?

A. No, sir; I only know it from Brown's and Miles' statement; but, then, they are boxed up, so far as I can learn.

Mr. Cornwell-In making these computations you figured as though there was nothing there, and you were going on to take that contract and do it for yourself or somebody else?

Q.-Then that question of lime and cement could not change your figures in the aggregate?

A.-No, sir; for I do not know what quantities they have there, nor do I know the cost except what the estimate shows; I based my estimate for the locks upon an estimate of Mr. Ball's, of fourteen dollars for each of them. The same as to the water-closet item. Mr. Ball told me it would cost that amount of money to put them in. Q. Where did you ascertain the value of the locks? A.-From Mr. Ball. I also heard Mr. Brown say that he could get these locks for fourteen dollars each. Q.-Who is Mr. Brown?

A. He is a gentleman in the hardware business in Folsom.

Q. Where did you find out what the joisting in the second story would cost—the value of the lumber?

A.-I found out from Mr. Terry. I know that lumber would be worth fully as much as I stated there.

Q-You just lump it here?

A.-Well, that lumber would be worth twenty-five dollars to twenty-seven dollars a thousand to get it up there.

QYou got your information from Terry?

A. Yes, sir; lumber varies in price. I asked him what it was worth, and he told me.

Q.-Doors for the cells, where did you get that?

A.-From Mr. Ball.

Q.-Plumbing, where did you get that?

A.-I made some inquiries down town here about the prices; Mr. Ball said these doors would cost twenty dollars apiece.

Q.-How many are there?

A. One hundred and sixty-eight.

Q.-Water-pipe, where did you get that?

A.-I ascertained down here what such pipe as that is worth; I also ascertained what the iron is worth-iron such as I have specified is worth four and a half to five cents a pound.

Mr. Chapman-What were you there?

A.-I was State Superintendent of that building.

Q. When did you enter into that employment?
A.-At the commencement of the building.

Q.-Do you think this contractor has been overpaid?

A.-Take my estimate and take his contract and there is certainly a wide difference. Take the pro rata of his contract and the amount of the work done, he certainly cannot go on; if it takes one hundred and forty thousand dollars to finish his contract, and he has been paid one hundred thousand, it is very evident he cannot finish the work at the contract price.

Mr. Clunie-If you were figuring on that contract you would not take it at the price Miles did. There would be a very big difference? A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Clunie-How would you figure upon work that has been done? A. He has been paid thirty-five cents for work that I would have done for twenty-two. It would take one hundred and forty thousand dollars to complete it. That is, supposing as to the worth of the work already done.

Mr. Clunie-Now, what are the materials and work there worth? A.-Well, I suppose the work, considering the way it is done, and the character of it (portion of it being underground)-for in making an estimate we must take into consideration the advantages and dist advantages of doing the work-these walls, for instance, are four feet wide, on an average and sixteen feet deep.

Q.-Well, now, could not you give us an aggregate amount?
A.-I could not tell you that.

Q.-What could that work at the foot of the wall be done for?
A. For twenty-two cents a foot.

Q-You say it could be done for twenty-two cents.

A. Yes, sir; I should like to have it for twenty-five.

Q-What did the schedule, charge?

A.-Mr. Ball allowed thirty-five cents.

Q-With reference to the sewerage what do you think of the manner in which it is being put in there?

A.Well, I would certainly prefer it being put in.

Q.

You saw the way those locks were put in?

A. That is a thing I did not interfere with-the work to be carrie out according to the specifications.

Q-Then it would take two hundred and forty thousand dollars, in all, to finish this contract?

A. That is, supposing the work done according to the specifications. Q. I also understand that to complete the contract would cost more than the contract price?

A.-It would cost pretty near what I have given you.

Mr. Chapman-The meaning of that statement is, that Miles has estimated what he has done, too high, and what he has not done, too low.

Mr. Cornwell-Don't you think it would have been better to put rubble work between the cells?

A.-No, sir; the specification is right there.

Q-Is there any alteration that could be made there that would cheapen, and yet not impair the strength of the building?

A.-I think the ceilings could be made by putting in arches instead of large, heavy stone. The first floor could be leveled up with concrete and made a better floor.

Mr. Bagge-Don't you think that it will be more advisable and better to take those pipes outside?

A. Yes, sir; I think so, decidedly. I should prefer them in the corridor. I think they could be concreted up solid, and by doing that you would obviate the necessity of covering them up with large, heavy stones.

M. A. CLARK, sworn.

Question-You worked up at Folsom under Mr. Miles, did you not?
Answer-Yes, sir.

Q.--Do you know what materials are there on the ground?
A. Yes, sir.

Q-Is there any cement there?

A.-There are some two hundred and fifty barrels of cement and from six hundred to seven hundred and fifty barrels of lime. All the drain-pipe, all the iron connections for connecting the cells with that sewer-pipe.

Q.-These all in accordance with the contract?

A. The contractor claims that neither that iron connecting-pipe, nor the iron doors, or the water-pipe, nor the grating, were mentioned in his contract.

Q.-Are these locks there?

A.-A portion of them are on the ground, and a portion in the possession of Mr. Brown.

Q-What Brown?

A.-The hardware merchant up there at Folsom. I understood that the State paid a portion or gave an estimate for them. Q.-How came those locks up there at all?

A.-They were engaged by Mr. Ball himself, and through him ordered from the East. They lay there at the depot, all but eight or ten cases, which I transferred to the grounds myself. At the time Miles suspended, parties attached a portion of the locks on the ground, and were seeking to attach those at the depot, when Brown took possession of them to cover some claims he had against Miles. Afterwards he came to me and acknowledged his taking them, and to see whether I was willing to allow him to have them, and I mitted.

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