our own college. It's worked on me that way, so today I am very, very fond of this Academy, and I have never seen a student perform bad deed in my life, and I am around here a good deal.

There is one thing that crossed my mind while sitting in the chair concerning the trips I have taken abroad and down to South America. I have always made a point on whatever ship I was on to get acquainted with the boys from this Academy, and I have had them down below with the permission of the captain-cocktail party. They have been simply tops, they couldn't be better. I think as a location for the Academy, why, here we are right within a few miles of the greatest port of the world, and a port from which our great ship, the United States sails, and I am just all for it and for the permanency just 100

percent.

Senator, we are beginning to love this place and think of it difFerently than you might say some ordinary institute.

I hadn't anything prepared, so I am probably leaving out a lot of things I probably should say.

Senator PAYNE. I would much rather have you speak of your feelngs, Mr. Meyers, extemporaneously, because I know it very definitely comes from your heart, and I want to express my thanks to you for being willing to come and speak as you have.

Mr. MEYERS. Thank you. I'm only too glad to, sir.
Senator PAYNE. Thank you very much, sir.

At this particular time I will introduce and place in the record at he same point that we introduced the other communications received from Members of the Congress, two communications. One from Congressman Otto Krueger, of North Dakota, and one from Estes Kefauver, one of my colleagues in the Senate, with a statement that he wished to have incorporated in the record.

I understand that there have been received inquiries as to whether or not those who are in support of Kings Point who were unable to get here to attend these hearings might be permitted to testify in Washngton on Monday or Tuesday. I just want to say that we will be very happy, indeed, to try to accommodate just as many as we posibly can. If you will get word to them regarding the hearings in Washington, starting on Monday, that we do have probably a number of witnesses from industry and from others concerned as well as from he Maritime Administration, but that any who cannot come, if they lesire to submit anything, they may send it to the Maritime Training Subcommittee of the Senate Interstate and Foreign Commerce Comnittee in the United States Capitol.

I also want to say that when the report is available as many copies s possible, Admiral, will be made available to you for distribution of those to the staff and as many others as possible.

Admiral MCLINTOCK. Thank you.

Senator PAYNE. Where we are not able to furnish copies within he limited funds at our disposal the Government Printing Office vill make those available at a very minor cost. I do not know ust what it will be for the additional copies to be received but we vill provide all we can within the money that we do have available. Admiral McLINTOCK. I am sure all the cadets would like to have a opy if at all possible.

Senator PAYNE. And we will keep you advised as to how many we vill be able to print.

Now, I understand that Admiral Badger and Admiral Holden w to appear tomorrow?

Admiral MCLINTOCK. Yes, sir.

Senator PAYNE. We will make arrangements to hear them t

morrow.

May I inquire now are there others who are here at this particula afternoon session that might desire to be heard at this time? Is there anyone at all that wishes to be heard?

(There was no response.)

Senator PAYNE. If there is no one present who wishes to be hear at this time I think it is highly desirable if we might now proce. at least for the next few moments in a general discussion of certa points that members of the staff or I may wish to inquire i Admiral, I am sure you or members of your staff can give us your be thinking on them so that the record will be rather complete.

One of the points that I wanted to mention was that the Kis Point bill does not provide for pay to be provided the student- a Kings Point. Now, let me ask this: If it were deemed advisabl either now or in the future, to provide the students of Kings Port the same pay as is provided to the other service Academies, is the any reason why you would feel that those who are undertaking 1.2" time training education at the State academies should not be cu sidered on the same basis?

Admiral MCLINTOCK. Well, I personally feel, Senator Payne, they should have the same pay as the midshipmen and cadets at t other Academies.

Senator PAYNE. As long as they meet the standards?

Admiral MCLINTOCK. As long as they meet the standards. S of my reasons for that are that they are here following a dedicate profession, we work them from 6 o'clock in the morning until: o'clock at night; we don't allow the plebes to go home the first pa overnight and there is absolutely no opportunity for them to go catside and earn any pocket money.

Senator PAYNE. They have no summer vacation?

Admiral MCLINTOCK. No, sir; and we insist that they maiṛ** their uniforms, laundry, right up to snuff, that they have their l cut short. They have many other expenses which you do not have the ordinary civilian college.

We make the plebes wait on tables, of necessity. Of course, there s no harm in that excepting we have a very difficult course here, 4-yes” academic course compressed into 3 years, so that they need all tipossible time they can have for study.

In the ordinary college, in a civilian college, they could earn song money by waiting on tables, but, as I say, there is no way they earn money here. I am sure that some very deserving boys of reet families are barred from coming here because we cannot give them any pay at the present time. I could probably think of more ressons. I think those are the salient ones though, Senator.

Mr. WEBSTER. Those same reasons, Admiral McLintock, would → to exist at the State academies in Maine, Massachusetts, Califor and New York, is that correct?

Admiral MCLINTOCK. Well, I might answer that by saying I wo "¿ be glad to see them get the money but I do not know just what br

conditions are at the other academies, whether they can go home on the weekends or

Senator PAYNE. Once in a while, I believe.

Mr. WEBSTER. I might suggest this, sir, that if between now and November 20 you determine that there are basic differences between the students at this academy insofar as the need for pay in relation to the students at the State academies, it would be very helpful for our record to have that.

I have been assuming that there is no basic distinction which would justify pay to be given to the students at Kings Point once it becomes a permanent institution, were no pay to be given to the students of Maine, Massachusetts, California, and New York.

Admiral MCLINTOCK. Can I put it this way, Mr. Webster, that if conditions are the same then my reply would be the same.

I suppose there are other questions which would arise which would be outside of my province as to whether the Federal Government would pay the money to State academies or whether the States would.

Mr. WEBSTER. I think it might also be helpful for the record if we had a comparison of the factors as they will exist here under permanent status and as they do exist at the Naval Academy and West Point, looking not in an argumentative way to justify pay for the students here, but to set forth factually for the benefit of our committee where the situations are similar and where they are dissimilar.

The reason I state it in that way is that I think in years to come, if we have been thorough in this study, when such questions as this possible question of giving pay to the students at Kings Point and/or at the State academies arises, this hearing record might obviate the necessity for further hearings.

Senator PAYNE. At least for long hearings in connection with it. Admiral MCLINTOCK. Well, Mr. Senator, if you would like to hear the executive officer's opinion on that-Mr. Nerney.

Commander NERNEY. We certainly feel that pay is a misnomer, as Commander O'Connell mentioned the other night. It is an allowance paid by the Federal Government to any of its students. It is perfectly in order because the money is needed for many things. We will take it away from them for uniforms, they would perhaps pay their laundry out of it. That is just living expenses that the lad needs for the years he is here.

The admiral said they are not permitted or they do not have the time to work like a student would at another college.

Mr. WEBSTER. Under the Kings Point bill as it exists today, sir, the term "pay" is left out but the term "allowance" is stated. I gather that you do not say that pay and allowances legislatively in this bill are one and the same. There is a distinction, is there not?

Commander NERNEY. I frankly don't know. Do they call it pay at West Point?

Mr. WEBSTER. I am thinking only of the bill as it was originally drafted. It had the term "pay and allowances." In the present form I believe the term "pay" is not included, but I notice that Mr. James Murphy has his hand up, maybe he can help us out on this one.

Mr. MURPHY. As a drafter of the bill, sir, I think I would like to elaborate on that specific point if I may.

In drafting that particular piece of legislation the intent there was not one of incorporating pay and allowances, allowances in the spe

cific reference to books, uniforms, and the material necessary for the boy's maintenance at the Academy here.

Mr. WEBSTER. But not the same monthly pay that the Naval Academy gets?

Mr. MURPHY. Absolutely not, sir. There is no reference in that bill in any shape or form.

Mr. WEBSTER. We have the same

Admiral MCLINTOCK. I think it is a reference to our definition of the thing. I believe that unless there is a legal term or legal reas for it we would not favor the term "pay" because that is for services rendered, whereas we think that allowances which would total the amount they have at the other Federal academies are necessary for the proper purchase of text books, uniforms, miscellaneous expenses and possibly a little pocket money.

Mr. WEBSTER. I think, then, Admiral, that there is some need for clarification either in the bill or in, let us say, our thinking and perhaps yours. Because it is my impression that under the bill, and I gather Mr. Murphy's also, as it is now drafted there would be no possibility for a monthly payment as such to be made to the students. There is such a payment at West Point and Annapolis.

Senator PAYNE. Let me say this, too, that that is the one provisio that never concerned me, but on which I have heard from some of those who might be in opposition when the vote is taken. They have expressed concern so that I think anything and everything that we can do to clarify what we mean by the phraseology in the present bill can aid materially in putting at rest and providing me with ar answer that I can argue on the floor of the Senate, or others who are interested in the record that we establish right here.

Admiral MCLINTOCK. I think, Mr. Senator, that we are all in accord with the total amount which is the same as the other Federal academies. and what we have been discussing is a definition of whether it should be called pay or called allowances; isn't that it?

Senator PAYNE. Let me make that suggestion, rather than stretch out to a long discussion of it, Admiral. If you would be good enough with your staff and Jim, you may be in consultation, can sort of sit down and put this thing down exactly as you want it to appear in the record as to your understanding of what it means it will be most helpful.

(Information furnished to the subcommittee later by the We Point and Naval Academy authorities on this point, was as follows:

UNITED STATES MILATARY ACADEMY, PAY AND ALLOWANCES

Cadets currently receive pay amounting to $111.15 per month. This amoent less $9.80 per month deduction for income tax, is paid by the United States Ary finance officer to the treasurer, United States Military Academy, who cres it to the account of the individual cadet. From this pay cadets must pay fe their uniforms, textbooks, laundry, dry cleaning, social functions, etc.

Cadets also receive a ration allowance of $1.35 per day, curently established in accord with paragraph 1, Army Regulations 35-1610, dated June 23, 19 This amount is paid by the United States Army finance officer to the treas of the United States Military Academy, who spends it entirely on food. If a cadet is absent for 10 days or longer the ration allowance is credited to as account.

A cadet is entitled, upon admission, to travel allowance of 6 cents per müe over the shortest usually traveled route from his home to West Point.

UNITED STATES ACADEMY, PAY AND ALLOWANCES

During the 4-year curriculum at the Naval Academy a midshipman, as an officer in the Navy, is required to be self-supporting. His pay, at the rate of $111.15 per month,' is closely administered and budgeted to provide the following: (a) Prescribed uniforms and required clothing;

(b) Textbooks and equipment;

(c) Sundries (for cleanliness, health, and relaxation);
(d) Services (laundry, tailor, cobbler, and barber);

(e) Moderate allowance for extracurricular activities;

(f) Leave money, provided a sufficient balance is maintained in his account;

(g) Payment of income tax by checkage of his account;

(h) Funds to purchase necessary uniforms and equipment for his graduation outfit so that he will be in all respects ready to assume his duties as a commissioned officer.

His ration allowance at the rate of $1.35 is intended to provide his board and is almost entirely used for that purpose. However, when on authorized leave his ration allowance is commuted, accumulates to his credit, and is available to offset personal cost of subsistence during leave.

The accounts of all midshipmen are credited with $600 advanced by the Government at the time of entrance into the Naval Academy. This advance enables the fourth classman to pay for the heavy charges for his initial outfit, equipment, uniforms, and textbooks when received. It must be clearly understood that this sum is an advance only. It does not increase the pay of midshipmen, and it must be repaid to the Government at the rate of $20 per month for 30 months commencing in October of the third class year. After complete repayment of the $600 advanced by the Government, midshipmen may draw in case any amount due in excess of the graduation reserve.

One point which may need clarifying is the $600 advance referred to. This advance, together with the $100 which the midshipman must pay on admission, is needed to help pay for the initial outfit of clothing, textbooks, etc. The advance is authorized by a law which permits the Secretary of the Navy to set the amount. Midshipmen involuntarily separated are required to turn in all equipment and uniforms suitable for reissue in order to help liquidate any balance due on the loan. Any loss resulting from failure to repay in full is borne by the Government. Midshipmen who resign voluntarily must repay the loan in full before separation. They may receive credit, at rates determined locally, for uniforms and equipment suitable for reissue, in order to help repay the loan. Mr. WEBSTER. In that same connection, Senator, I would like to lead up to this question of the quota of students.

Congressman Dorn raised it this morning and I think as we have ascertained from discussing the Kings Point permanency with the interested members of the faculty at the various State academies, unquestionably one of their main concerns is that by making Kings Point permanent it is but another way of saying that within 5 years they will cease to exist because of the competitive advantage that permanent status will give Kings Point.

I think I was just listing a few questions that might help develop it for the record.

Admiral McLintock, I think, directing our attention back to the year 1952, perhaps 1953, that uncertainty as to the continuation of Kings Point became a matter of concern in the consideration of the members of the faculty of this school; is that correct?

Admiral MCLINTOCK. Well, you could consider that an understatement, Mr. Webster.

Mr. WEBSTER. I also understand that uncertainty as to the continuation of the State academies became a matter of concern to those people at that time; is that correct?

1 Prior to April 1, 1955, midshipmen of the classes of 1956, 1957, and 1958 were paid at the rate of $81.12 per month.