uniform allowance and subsistence, and we would like to tie in State nautical schools as the bill speaks of, and Kings Point together in that. I will submit that in more detail.

Senator PAYNE. That will be helpful. Thank you.

Mr. WEBSTER. In that connection, Admiral Durgin, referring to the absence in the Kings Point bill now of any provision for pay for the students attending, in that respect the bill differs from the authorization for the Naval Academy and West Point and the Air Force Academy, as I understand it.

It is my understanding that the other permanent academies which I have just referred to do give to their students a certain amount of pay each month. I think it would be helpful to this study if you would submit for the record the opinion of this institution as to whether pay is necessary to come to a maritime officer trainee personally. In particular, we would like to know whether you feel that it is necessary for the students at this school, and secondly, whether you feel that pay would be necessary for the students at the Federal Academy if it becomes a permanent institution. If you should conclude that it is not necessary at either place, we would like to have for the record why you feel that it is not necessary to give pay to students at either school, perhaps differentiating from the situation as it exists in the other academies.

The reason I asked for that for the record is that while there is no provision in the Kings Point bill at this time for pay to be given to the students at Kings Point, that request might come up in the future. I think in order that this study be relatively complete we should have those views of this school, and in fact, of the other schools, too, as well as Kings Point.

Senator PAYNE. There has already been a question raised as to that particular feature in the present legislature.

Admiral DURGIN. You mean I should submit that later, not now? Mr. WEBSTER. I think if you would submit that later it would be helpful to our record.

Senator PAYNE. Are there any further questions of the Admiral? If not, thank you very much, Admiral.

Just before we close the hearings may I ask if there is anyone here that desires to be heard relative to any statement that has been made or to give the committee the benefit of any thoughts they might have relative to this study?

Dean FRODIN. Mr. Senator, it seems to me that the committee could well give attention to two points which have been factors in the more or less unsettled condition with regard to the operation of the college in recent years. First, and perhaps most important of these, is the relationship between the cadet or the cadet-midshipman or the officer candidate programs to the commissioning desires of the Navy with respect to such personnel.

It has seemed to me as a citizen that if the Navy is interested in having a type of officer personnel aboard the American merchant marine who in time of war could have the status of officers, they should be able to devise a reserve scheme, I use the reserve in a general sense, a reserve scheme which would set up a classification which would permit all of the State maritime schools to produce the kind of people who, in time of emergency, would be suitable officers.

This might not be the same as the Reserve program that they have for other types of naval personnel.

In other words, they could categorize this as part of the total consideration of our manpower problems and utilization of these trained people. That might mean a register, a roster of persons who have had certain amount of experience. It might be hooked up with the national scientific roster. There ought to be a new device, in other words, that would permit an establishment of a reserve in relation to the national defense and at the same time provide a career opportunity for those boys that wanted to follow that outlet.

This would take, obviously, a study by the Navy and work of the Maritime Administration to which this committee might properly, it seems to me, direct attention.

The second matter was brought up by the relationship with the Maritime Administration. It seemed to me that the committee might give attention to the creation in connection with the Maritime Ad ministration of some sort of an educational advisory committee that would periodically review with them the educational problems connected with the maritime industry, and the incidental benefits for that would be kept in mind. I reread General Order No. 22, yester day, and thought how unrealistic it was in the actual operation which I had to deal with, and the number of things they said that they were doing that they did not have the authority over or the way to do I think a much more realistic code for the operation of the relation ship of the Training Section of the Maritime Administration with particularly the State schools-whatever they do-direct operations of Kings Point being their business. I think that I can cite as s? impressive example of this the relation that we have in our college of agriculture with the Department of Agriculture in carrying out the mandates of various Federal legislation connected with market and research and extension work. There is an educational liaison at all times between the educational institutions that are carrying that work and the Federal agency, in that case, the Department of Agriculture. Thank you.

Senator PAYNE. Fine, thank you very much, Dean.

Mr. WEBSTER. Could I suggest two things in connection with what you have just said, Dean Frodin? First, that in the additional msterial which is going to be supplied in particular you spell out more detail this second suggestion relating to General Order 22. I would think that that comment on General Order 22 which, as TIG have made it, is given in a very constructive way, would be well to be tied into the proposed modification or amendment to the Kings Port bill, assuming that the Kings Point bill passes with, and perhaps without, the modifications as suggested by this institution.

Second, it seems to me that it would be in order to then suggest how this General Order 22 should be modified, in particular, if this setup that exists between the Department of Agriculture and your instit tion is working effectively tie in in that manner as suggested by yo would be helpful to our record and in turn to the Maritime Adm istration which undoubtedly is going to be interested in s suggestion.

Dean FRODIN. Well, off the record. (Discussion off the record.)

Mr. PORTER. I would like to make one further observation in connection with Dean Frodin's scholarship suggestion. Students at a normal 4-year college have a summer vacation. The average boy during that summer vacation, if he has the necessary gumption, can get a job and earn a substantial portion of his college expenses. The students at this college cannot do that because during the summer they must go on this cruise, and that cruise is required by the Federal Government as a prerequisite sea time for the license. So therefore, since the Federal Government requires the student to spend all summer in training for their license that, I think, is a justification for the Federal Government subsidy to the extent that the student might earn if he had the summer to himself.

The other thing, an extension of Dean Frodin's remarks that I think the committee should consider, is the position that the Maritime Administration has been taking in tying the present scholarship subsidy to the Navy officers' physical. I can personally see no justification in that as long as the prime mission of these colleges is training for the maritime industry.

We have had many excellent students here who have gone through the school with great difficulty on their own resources and borrowed from the alumni loan fund, or they have received scholarship help from various organizations which they had to get because, let us say, they had one missing tooth or one eye was 26/80.

Mr. WEBSTER. Is it possible from your records of graduates to give the committee some information as to how many of your cadet graduates, as distinguished from your midshipmen graduates, have been subsequently accepted as naval officers?

Mr. PORTER. I will investigate that, I think it is possible that they could give you some figures on that.

(The above-mentioned figures are given in a subsequent letter from Adm. C. T. Durgin, as follows:)

Mr. DONALD D. WEBSTER,

STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK,
MARITIME COLLEGE,

Fort Schuyler, New York 65, N. Y., October 28, 1955.

Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, Subcommittee on Maritime Training, Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C.

DEAR MR. WEBSTER: In reply to your questions concerning the commissioning of students in the cadet program, we have secured the following figures:

This record may not be complete since graduates who have been 6 months at sea as a merchant marine officer may then apply for a direct commission in the Naval Reserve. This application may be made in any naval district and if such an application was made in New Orleans or San Francisco, we would not hear of it unless the man involved wrote us.

You will note that one man was commissioned in the Coast Guard Reserve. The Coast Guard is very receptive to the idea of giving our men a commission in the Reserve. The difficulty there lies in the fact that the Coast Guard is limited in funds and cannot guarantee active duty. This means that a man holding a Coast Guard commission is liable to the draft because he has not had 90 days active duty, and if the Coast Guard cannot call him to duty he may then be drafted. This explains why only one cadet program graduate has accepted a Coast Guard commission.

This year the Bureau of Personnel has included in the naval science curriculum a large amount of confidential material. As a result, therefore, students not in the Naval Reserve may not take the senior course in naval science and may not be given certain of the material in the junior year in gunnery. We have received a directive from the Bureau of Personnel (File No. Pers-B641-hr) in which the pertinent paragraph reads as follows:

"In order to be appointed in the Naval Reserve, graduates must have suecessfully completed the entire course in naval science and hold a limited ocean license as a deck or engineering officer."

As a result of this directive, the Navy will not commission cadet program students who have not completed the full curriculum in naval science but at the same time, students in the cadet program may not take the full curriculum because they are not in the Naval Reserve. This doesn't make sense. Hoping this is the information you wish, I am

Sincerely yours,

C. T. DURGIN.

Mr. WEBSTER. For the record, what is the distinction between the cadet and the midshipmen at this school?

Mr. PORTER. $455. That is the cadets are the students who pass the Coast Guard requirement for license.

Admiral DURGIN. Physically.

Mr. PORTER. And do not pass the Navy requirements for admission to Annapolis, which is the standard that the Navy is using. There fore, as far as their situation is concerned they are ordinary civilian students as they would be in any other college. They pay their own bills with no assistance, they are subject to the vagaries of the local draft boards, and upon graduation may be drafted to serve in the Army as a buck private.

Mr. WEBSTER. As a matter of fact, though, isn't it true that the graduates, even though they were cadets rather than midshipmen, by and large are accepted into active naval commissioned service?

Mr. PORTER. If they are able to find a ship and sail 6 months on their license as a licensed officer in the merchant marine then the Navy will commission them in a different category.

Admiral DURGIN. 1,108 category.

Senator PAYNE. That situation has come up previously and it is something that we are going into rather completely before we get through.

Mr. WEBSTER. Again in this connection, anything you can give us in the way of your views for constructively improving this part of the picture would be helpful.

Mr. PORTER. I will find as many of those figures as I can and we will give you a further statement.

Admiral DURGIN. Off the record, if I may.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator PAYNE. On the record.

Admiral DURGIN. There is nothing in the law or the appropria tion bills that are passed giving so much money for books and so much money for subsistence to the students at the Federal or State maritime school that states they must be physically qualified to be

naval officers. That is a ruling made by the Maritime Administrator which can be changed by him.

Mr. WEBSTER. Is it probably that the Maritime Administrator has made that ruling after consultation with the Navy Department hough?

Admiral DURGIN. I can see no reason why the Navy would be the least bit interested in that in any way whatsoever. I don't believe so. I think it was done by Mr. Telfair Knight, I don't know why, some years ago. We brought that up to Clarence Morse when we were in a meeting at New Orleans-three State schools represented down there-California, Maine, and New York.

Mr. WEBSTER. When was this meeting, sir?

Admiral DURGIN. Sunday a week ago, I don't remember what date that was. He asked us to submit this matter to him so that he would consider it.

We also brought up the question of wouldn't it be practical and a good thing to make a policy on the level of the Secretary of the Navy to prevent the Secretary of the Navy from taking into the Navy immediately on the outbreak of any emergency all of the graduates from these schools that have an ensign's commission or a commission in the Naval Reserve.

You know, from your experience in the Navy, and I certainly know from what I saw, that in time of war the first thing the Navy would do would be to send telegrams out mobilizing the graduates from these merchant marine schools into the Navy at the very first opportunity.

We believe that our graduates can serve this country best on the decks of merchant ships rather than serving on the decks of men-ofSo, a policy that was stated and followed would be very good in that way in making sure of these merchant marine officers that we are training, if totally supported at King's Point and partly aided here, would be a very good thing and something that our boys ought to do rather than go into the Navy.

They would not go into the merchant marine in most cases unless they are made to, because the Navy is much more desirable duty in time of war than the merchant marine. He said he would look into that, too.

Senator PAYNE. Admiral, I do have one thing that I just want to make certain for the record.

Are you familiar with the publication for official use that was released by the Maritime Administration on personnel training? Admiral DURGIN. Yes.

Senator PAYNE. Have you had a chance to review it rather completely?

Admiral DURGIN. No, I have not.

Senator PAYNE. Would you be good enough some time as you go along to review it in order to determine whether or not the facts as related in that document-and I am particularly interested because it is marked for official use-do clearly and factually represent the status of the New York State Maritime College?

Admiral DURGIN. Yes, sir, I will be glad to.

Senator PAYNE. Because there has been a question raised by one of the other training schools that the facts related in there are not factual,