ent about it. All the other members of the family seem to be strong in the faith, but Herbert evidently is not interested in religion. I believe he is a good, moral young man, and have hopes that he will become interested in spiritual matters some day. There are always hopes for a young man who is morally clean. While he is an intelligent and well educated young man, he has not been educated spiritually. To be an intelligent Latter-day Saint, a person must study our doctrines. I believe that salvation is education. But that is only another way of expressing what the Prophet Joseph Smith said that a man cannot be saved in his ignorance, and that we are saved only so fast as we gain knowledge. Herbert is bright enough to understand the gospel, and will appreciate its beauties if he once gets interested enough to investigate it."

"Then, I think it would be well to visit him. He may need our visits more than some people in our district who are called upon every month. If he is willing to receive us as teachers we may be able to do him some good. We can at least show our good will towards him, and perhaps retain his friendship," was Edward's comment.

As to being made wel-
Herbert is very gentle-

As I have already

"That is how I feel about the matter. come at the house by him, I have no fears. manly in his manner-is quite sociable, too. told you, he is not interested in religion, and is somewhat inclined to ridicule it. Well, if you say so, we'll go and visit him. I hope we will find him at home. I am ready to go at any time now, Edward."

"I am at your service, Brother Nelson."

A few words of prayer were offered; Oscar kissed his wife and babies, and the two men were off.

Happily they found Herbert Melbourne at home. He cordially invited them into the parlor, set chairs for them and bade them be seated, and before giving them a chance to state their errand, called to his mother, who was in the dining room adjoining, saying that teachers had called to see her, adding in the same breath, "I'm such a "hopeless infidel' that they will not want to see me, so I would better retire."

"No; we've come to visit you, Herbert," protested Brother

、

Nelson. Of course, we want to visit your mother, too; but our special errand is to talk with you.'

"Well, you are not like Allen and his companion. They gave me up long ago as lost, and took good care to come and visit mother when I was not at home. I believe they were a little afraid of me," added Herbert, with a laugh, "because I propounded so many questions which they could not answer. Perhaps you can solve the theological problems with which I am perplexed, so I shall give you a chance."

"If inability to answer your questions will frighten men away, we have cause to fear, for we don't pretend to be able to explain mysteries. As acting teachers in the Church, we have come to ask questions rather than to answer conundrums; and I will begin by asking you and your mother if you have any objections to us occupying a few moments of your time this evening in a heart-toheart talk; and further, will you permit us to begin in our usual way as teachers, by offering prayer and singing a hymn?"

"I surely have no objections," answered Herbert, "unless you make your prayers too long. Have you any, mother?"

"None whatever. I am glad to have their visits, and I assure them that they are always welcome."

"I am not sure that you are acquainted with Brother Jones,. my companion, Sister Melbourne. Herbert has met him before, I believe," said Oscar by way of introducing his fellow teacher. "We have just recently been appointed to labor in this district." "Well, you are welcome to come here as often as you find time," said Mrs. Melbourne.

"Yes," added Herbert, "if you can stand it, we can."

Brother Jones led in the prayer, and Brother Nelson led in the hymn. In fact, he sang the hymn almost entirely alone, his companion being a poor singer.

"That's pretty good singing, Oscar, you ought to join a minstrel troupe-excuse me, an opera troupe, I should say," exclaimed Herbert, beginning to fire off his shots of sarcasm.

But Oscar thought it best not to notice his sallies, and to proceed to business at once.

"We have come," he began, "to inquire into your spiritual condition, Herbert. As teachers in the Church, it is our mis

sion to see that the members are attending to their duties as Saints, and to offer encouragement and counsel. We are expected to see to it that the members under our charge meet often to worship in public and see that there is no iniquity in the Church, and to look after the general welfare of all those under our care."

"I do not know that you consider me a member. I'm not much of a saint. I never go to meeting. Haven't paid tithing, and don't believe in many doctrines taught in the Church," explained Herbert.

"You were baptized, I presume, when eight years old, were you not?"

"O yes, and was ordained a deacon when about thirteen years of age, but have renounced everything religious of late years. I don't take any stock in it!"

"You have not renounced it in any formal way-you haven't been dealt with for your fellowship, have you?" queried Brother Nelson.

"No; simply let the Church alone, and it has left me alonethat's all," was the answer.

"Well, until you are formally dealt with, you are counted as a member-'

"A dead member, yes!"

"Would you mind stating what particular doctrines of the Church you object to?" requested Brother Jones who up to this time had said but very little.

"Well, about everything."

"You don't claim to be an infidel, do you?" asked Brother Nelson.

"Not exactly that. I am what you might call an agnostic. While I do not deny that there is a God, I do not know that there is such a being. Some people say they know that there is a God, when in truth it is only a belief they have. They do not seem to understand the difference between knowledge and faith," Herbert replied.

"Don't you think it is possible for one to get a knowledge of God-that is, to know that he exists?" further inquired Brother Nelson.

"If a person actually saw him, that, I consider, would be good

evidence that there was such a being. But I have never met any one who would admit that he ever saw God; and yet many of our preachers will testify most positively that they know he lives, and they attempt to describe his character, and so on."

"But don't you believe, Herbert, that it is possible for one to reach the conclusion that there is a Creator without actually seeing him?"

"Yes, he might do so, provided he were furnished with some tangible evidence-something that would demonstrate the fact beyond question.'

"You want a mathematical demonstration?"’

"Yes, something that would be conclusive."

"And what kind of demonstration would you consider as being conclusive?"

"I should say, seeing, or hearing, or feeling, would perhaps be the most substantial evidence one could have of the existence of anything, or of any being.'

"Then you consider that we have only a knowledge of those things that appeal to our outward senses? You are conscious of the fact that our senses may be deceived, and also that there are other means of obtaining knowledge aside from our physical senses."

"Yes, I believe one can determine some facts from reason. You know in law there are two kinds of testimony that are accepted -direct evidence and circumstantial evidence. When we sense a thing, we have direct proof of its existence; conclusions deducted through reasoning are what might be regarded as indirect evidence, or proof."

"I understand that you have studied law, Herbert, and I believe you have stated it about right. Now let me ask you to apply your knowledge of the law in answering another question: Which is considered the best evidence, direct or circumstantial?"

"That is an unsettled question. It is difficult to determine. As you just remarked, our senses may be deceived, and witnesses may not tell the truth, while circumstances, it is claimed, never lie."

I see.

"Yes, that's true. You are well posted on questions of law, I do not understand why you do not follow the profession.

Now you admit that circumstantial evidence is as good as direct evidence, do you?"

"Yes."

"Facts can be proved from circumstances to your satisfaction and acceptance?"

"Oscar, I can see the purpose you have in carrying on this inquisition. You've got me to admit that circumstantial evidence is conclusive, and now you are going to spring the proposition that the existence of a Creator is evident from circumstances. But you will have to show me yet, so go on. By the way, you would make a good prosecuting attorney. I'm surprised that you are not a lawyer. You'd better hang out your shingle or run for

office of county attorney."

"Well, you know, a printer gets a smattering knowledge of law and nearly everything else. He picks it up as he picks up the types. Now, seriously speaking, don't you believe there is sufficient circumstantial proof of the existence of a Creator?" "Well, mention some, and then perhaps I can better answer your question."

"Let me give you some of what are regarded as scientific proofs. You have been to college and studied science-"

"But you know science and religion never agree, and religious teachers have the presumption to ask a man to accept religious dogmas, even when they are in conflict with demonstrated scientific truths!"

"You do not mean ministers of our Church. We may see as we proceed, if science and true religion conflict. Truths are always in harmony with each other, and wherever there is a disagreement there is something wrong with what is taught as religion or as science. Before we proceed further, let me ask your mother if she will not take this comfortable rocker. Perhaps our discussion will not interest her, in that case she can just take a quiet little nap." "O no, Brother Nelson, thank you, I am quite comfortable where I am; and I am interested in your conversation," said Sister Melbourne.

"Yes," added her son, "she's pleased when someone preaches religion to me. Well, perhaps I need it, if it is good for anyone, for I haven't got any in me. You know she preaches to me a good