1 formation now afked for. The Prefident himself has told us, that it is a subject which ought to have weight in our deliberations; a fubje&t on which it is our bufinefs to legiflate. I afk then, if we are to deliberate and legiflate upon this fubject; fhall we go to work blindfold? Shall we go to work to deliberate and legiflate upon a fubject of which we are totally ignorant? To this day the legislature of the United States have no official information of the fact, that Louisiana is ceded to France, except the flight mention made of it in the INTERESTING DEBATE Mr. Griswold, calling for information relative to the cession of Louisiana to France. In the house of representatives, on the resolution of Meffage of the Prefident. Of the conditions upon which it is to be delivered up, of the time of the transfer, and of many other important circumftances we know nothing. Yet when we afk to be furnished with information upon thele great and momentous points, obftacles are thrown in our way we are called upon to delay-to go into a committee of the whole, not for the purpofe of a more full and free difcuffion, not for the purpose of more readily obtaining the information, but for the avowed purpofe of fecrecy. Columbian Congress. From the Gavette of the United States. [Mr. Griswold in continuation.] Reference has been made to a call for papers in the year 1796, relative to the British treaty, and a comparifon has been drawn between that cafe and the one under confideration. It is infinuated that gentlemen who then voted against that refolution, are now acting inconfiftently; that they then denied the right of the house to call upon the Executive for the papers. This, fir, is a mistake: The right to call for papers was not denied by thofe who oppofed the refolution, but the object to which the information was to be applied, was objected to. A treaty had been con cluded by the Prefident and Senate, in whom the treaty-making power is vefted by the conftitution; and the house of rep refentatives was called upon to make the appropriations necellary for carrying the treaty into effect. It was contended on the part of thofe who advocated that refolution, that the houfe had a right to enquire into the merits of that treaty; to judge for themfelves whether it was the best that could be formed; and if not, that they had a right to withhold the appropriations, and prevent the treaty from going into effect; thus, in fact, ufurping a part of the treating-making power. It was profeffed. ly for the purpofe of enabling the houfe to form a judgment upon this point, that the papers in that cafe were called for. On the other fide, it was objected that the power of making treaties is veiled exclufively in the Prefident and Senate; that after a treaty had been ratified by them, the house of reprefentatives were bound in good faith to carry it into execution as a fupreme law of the land, without inquiring into the merits of it. The oppofition, therefore, to that refolution was fupported, not on the ground of a want of a right in the houfe to call for the papers, but on the ground that they were intended to give information on a fubject upon which the houfe had no right to act after obtaining the information. No fuch difpute exifts in the prefent inftance. No perfon can doubt the right of the house to act upon the in | Mr. Randolph was forry that he was under the neceflity of troubling the houfe again upon this question. I have already more than once ftated that I cannot difcufs this fubject in public. I have obfervations which I have already faid must be made in fecret, or they cannot be made at all. The gentleman from Connecticut fays he is willing that the refolution fhould be fully difcuffed, and therefore contends that it muft not be referred to a fecret committee, as he is pleafed to term it, where alone, as we have informed him, the difcuffion. which he feems to court can take place: Sir, this made logic, but I do not underftand it. A meffage from the Prefident relative to New-Orleans has been referred to a certain committee, and we propofe to refer this refolution to the fame committee. Gentlemen exclaim, that this is denying them information. Does it follow, of neceffity, that we deny the information be. caufe we chufe to confider the fubject with clofed doors? Cannot the refolution be as fully difcuffed in private as in public? Do all the reafoning faculties of this houfe ceafe to exift the moment the doors are closed? Cannot the eloquence of the gentlemen be exerted unleis when addressed to the ladies, who do us the honor of attending in this hall? Sir, I fhall not be drawn into a difcuffion of the merits of this refolution at the prefent time. I have arguments to advance upon the fubject, which will be known at a proper time. I fhall not advance them now. Union. He did not fee, that there could be any thing of a fecret nature in the refolution, nor any thing connected, in any way, with the Prefident's confidential melfage; but he could easily conceive that the information to be obtained by the refolution might be intimately connected with that fubject; he fhould therefore be in favor of referring that to a fecret committee, but could fee no neceflity of difpuling of the refolution in that way. Mr. S. Smith. The gentleman from Connecticut has candidly admitted that it is cuftomary in fuch cafes to make a reference, tho' he is not in favor of the reference being made to a committee with. fhut doors; but if the object were to obtain a free difcuffion, he would not object to it. He is told that a full and free dif cuffion cannot be had without fuch a reference, and yet he perfifts in his hoftility to the motion. He had been told fo by the mover, and common fense would have told him fo at firft; yet he is for taking advantage of the mover, and for fhutting out the arguments he has to urge. The gentleman is mistaken in his ftatemnent of the motives of the different fides of the Houfe in the difcuflion on a call for papers in 1796, when he reprefents one fide as claiming a right to participate in the treaty making power. He recollected it had been charged upon them; but they had denied it. We contended, faid General Smith, that when a treaty was formed appropriating a large fum of money, we had a right to appropriate or not appropriate the money; but we never affumed the right to fay whether the treaty was concluded or not. Afterwards, gentlemen themfelves, if he recollected right, moved a refolution that it was expedient to carry the treaty into effect, by which they did admit the right of the Houfe. Mr. Smith faid he had no previous knowledge of what the gentleman from Virginia meant by his motion; he might perhaps with to amend the refolution; but when he fays he has arguments that he cannot urge without fhut doors, he trusted that indulgence would be allowed him, or there would be a denial of juftice. Mr. Dana remarked on the practice of referring fubjects to a committee of the whole houfe. There are feveral objects to be answered by this formality. In committee of the whole, the fpeaker may take part in debate, like any other member, and thus we can have the benefit of his opinions. Every propofition, adopted in committee of the whole, is liable to a fecond difcuffion in the house. The reference to a committee of the whole, in this refpeft, is much the fame with faying that a fubject should ba difcuffed twice. In fome cafes, therefore, it is required, by the standing rules of the house, that particular fubjects be referred to a committee of the whole. All mo Mr. Bacon was oppofed to the motion. He thought it would be proper to call for the information immediately, and when it the information immediately, and when it fhall be obtained, to refer that information fhall be obtained, to refer that information to the secret committee on the ftate of the || ney bills must first be difcuffed in committee of the whole, and then referred to the house, where they are again confidered. In this manner, the reference of a fubject to a committee of the whole is favorable to a full difcuffion. It is alfo known, that greater freedom of debate is allowed in committee of the whole, than in the houfe, every member being permitted to speak, in the committee, as often as he may choofe. But in the house, no member is authorized to speak on a queftion more than twice, without first obtaining leave in form. This has been exemplified to-day in the cafe of the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Randolph). The fpeaker took a vote on the question of giving the gentleman liberty to speak a third time. It is thus, we fee, that a full and free difcuffion of a fubject is fecured by referring it to a committee of the whole. But does this require, that the committee of the whole fhould be a fecret committee? The terms, free and full difcuffion, so often in the mouth of the gentleman from Maryland (Gen. S. Smith) are fo much in ufe, and their import is fo well known, that the gentleman must be prefumed to understand them, as they are applicable to the ordinary forms of proceeding in committee of the whole. In this known and obvious fenfe, my colleague (Mr. Grifwold) undoubtedly made ufe of the terms. The gentleman from Maryland, therefore, fails in attempt-ing to infer the neceffity of a fecret committee, from what has been faid by my colleague. The importance of having information, refpecting the ceffion of Louifiana to France, is not denied. Gentlemen do not profefs to have objections against its being granted. Where then the neceffity of difcuffing the fubject in a committee of the whole? Is any queftion of principle, or of fact, to be debated? The request is for fuch information, and for none but fuch,as the Prefident may judge proper to be communicated. If the information is important in itself, if it is not objected against by gentlemen, and is finally fubmitted to the Prefident's difcretion, can there be a question about the principle of the refolution? As to any question of fact, the only fact, neceffary to be ascertained before adopting the refolution, is our own want of information. This every gentleman can in ftantly determine for himfelf. If any gentlemen have the information, in confequence of being admitted into the cabinet, they fhould be fo compaffionate as at least to allow an official communication to be made for the benefit of thofe who have not the fame pretenfions, and who feel and acknowledge their want of information. As it does not appear that there is any reafon for difcuffing the refolution in a committee of the whole, I would adopt it now, and am against the propofed reference. || But although this is my prefent opinion, it The queftion was then taken on Mr. Randolph's motion, by yeas and nays and carried in the affirmative, yeas 48 nays 39. On motion of Mr. Grifwold the house refolved itself into a committee of the whole on the flate of the union, Mr. John C. Smith in the chair. M. Randolph inftantly rofe and faid he held in his hand certain refolutions connected with the meffage of the prefident which had been difcuffed with clofed doors. He hoped the galleries would be cleared and that the committee would confider the refolutions. He fubmitted it to the chair whether the doors ought not to be clofed before reading his refolutions. Mr. Dana wifhed to know whether it appeared by the journals that any fuch bufinels was before the committee. If not, it could not be proper publicly to take any order upon it. Mr. Randolph faid he would call for the reading of the confidential meffage. Mr. Chairman gave it as his opinion that He mittee now rife, report progrefs, and atk leave to fit again-for the purpofe of moving, in the house, that the galleries should be cleared. Mr. Grifwold faid there was other bufinefs before the committee not of a private nature, namely, the refolution which had been that morning difcuffed in the house. He hoped the committee would now confider that refolution. Mr. Grifwold did hope that the committee would not rife. There is bufinels now before the committee which ough: to be taken up. The only reafon given for the committee ifing, is that a motion may be made to close the doors, in order again to go into a committee upon fecret bufinefs. What propriety can there be in adopting this meafure, when there is already before the committee business of a public and important nature which may now be taken up and acted upon? I refer, fir, to the refolution which has been under difcuffion this morning, and which is the very object for which the house went into committee. Sir I take the liberty to fay that this is bufinefs of a very preffing nature and ought to be acted upon immediately-it ought not to be poftponed for any other business which can be brought before the legiflature. Mr. Dana faid he really fhould hope, that as there is bufinefs, as his colleague had flated, of a very preffing nature, now before the committee, they would not act fuch a farce as to rife immediately without accomplishing any thing. He hoped that gentlemen would not confent to exhibit in the eyes of the world the fpectacle of the national legislature going into committee for no other purpofe than to come out again, and that to when bufinefs of the utmost importance was before them. Mr. Rutledge. Although much has been Mr. Grifwold faid there was no fuch Mr. S. Smith said he believed it had there, they, without affigning any reasons, will probaly vote against our calling for information. The belief of Louifiana's having been ceded to France, and the an ticipation of thofe measures which would probably be confequent to the ceffion, have greatly excited the fenfibility of our fellow citizens in every part of the country, and they have a right to be fully informed on this fubje&t. Gentlemen advert to what was done by this fide of the house when papers were called for in relation to the treaty of London, and yet all we afk is, that they would now purfue a courfe fimilar to what was then purfued, and take the prefent motion into confideration without dofing our doors. The information we defire is wanted by our conflituents no lefs than by ourselves, and if it be withheld, they ought to know the grounds of the refufal. Mr. Euftis faid if the gentleman from Connecticut had moved to go into a committee of the whole, for the fpecial purpofe of confidering his refolution, he fhould then fuppofe that bulinefs ought to have the preference: But as the motion was general, he was of opinion that the bufinefs which had the priority in point of time ought to have the priority in the attention of the houfe. The refolution had never been before the house till yesterday: the mef fage of the prefident had lain upon the table for feveral days. He therefore thought the committee ought to rife in order to go, in a regular manner into a confideration o! that fubject. Mr. Macon (Speaker) remarked that a committee of the whole house was one committee, and a committee of the whole houfe on the fate of the union another committee. They were dillin&t committees. The left was never formed for fpecial pur. pofes. He did not recollect that this had ever been done. Whereas the other com mittee was always formed for a special purpose. The difficulty in this cafe had arifen from refering the confidential mef fage to a committee of the whole on the flate of the Union. He believed it would be well to rife and feparate the two fubjects that had been referred to the committee on the ftate of the Union. which could come before the committee; that fubject was now before it, and as every body must view it as a very important and preffing one, he hoped the committee would not rife without difpofing of it. Mr. S. Smith remarked that he and his friends must feel themselves under peculiar obligation to the gentleman from SouthCarolina (Mr. Rutledge), for suggesting to them what he confidered as the proper courfe in this bufinefs. I dare fay, faid, Mr. Smith, that the mode propofed by that gentleman appears to him a very proper gentleman appears to him a very proper one; and the reafons which he has ftated for prefering that mode are, no doubt, very fatisfactory to him: but, fir, they are not fo to me. I have no doubt that that gentleman would be very willing to direct us in what manner we fhall conduct our own affairs; but Sir, he will permit me to inform him that we have taken great pains to get the power out of the hands of that gentleman and his friends, and to veft it in our own hands, and he can hardly fup. pofe, after all this, that we will fuffer gentlemen to direct our affairs in a dif ferent courfe from that which we with them to take. It was our intention, Sir. that this refolution fhould not be difcuffed with open doors, and I trust gentlemen will find that they cannot embarrass us in fuch a manner as to force us to relinquifh our purpose. Mr. Grifwold could not underftand what was faid by the gentleman from Mafs. (Mr. Euftis) relative to a priority of motion. He knew of but one motion before the committee. One motion had been made, and had been decided to be out of order. Another was then made and was now under confideration. He knew of but two fubjects which had been referred to a committee of the whole on the ftate of the Union; one of thefe was of a public nature, and the other of a private nature. A fubject of a private nature could not be taken up by a committee fitting with open doors; of courfe there was but one fubje&t || Mr. Dana. The honourable gentleman from Maryland (Gen. S. Smith) has expreffed one fentiment in which I perfectly acquicfce. It is that he and his political friends have taken great pains to obtain the pofleflion of power. But, Sir, permit me to exprefs my regret, that on the prefent occafion there thould be any recurrence to the diftinction of politicial parties. In deb berating on a fubject which peculiarly affects the inhabitants of the western country, and is extenfively interefting to the commerce and navigation of the Atlantic flates, it was to be hoped, that the fpirit of party might be permitted to flumber. On a queftion embracing fuch great concerns, fo deeply interefling to all Americans, fo ferioully connected with our exiflence as one united nation. It is eminently defirable, that this house fhould exhibit, to our fellow citizens, an example of unanimity. Beneficial effects to our country may be expected, if we now prove to the world, by our conduct, that however we may differ on other topics, with refpect to this great object, we all have but one will, that we all are animated with one foul, and, if force fhould ultimately be neceffary, will ftrike as with one arm. feffion, that a propofition to amend the conftitution was referred to that committee, and the chairman, when the committee rofe, reported that they had difagreed to the refolution. He remembered that he objected at the time, to that form of reporting; the cuftom had before been to report that they had come to no refolution: This was decided to be the correct mode. Confequently if the committee now rife, as the refolution of the gentleman from Connecticut is under confideration, it will be a rejection of the refolution and a denial of the information. mittee of the whole on the ftate of the Union from any further confideration of the Prefident's meffage relative to shutting the port of New Orleans. Having read his refolution, he carried it up to the clerk's ta ble. Mr. Grifwold afked if there was any fuch meffage before the houfe? and if not, whether the refolution was in order. Mr. Speaker decided that the motion was not in order, and Mr. Dawson carried his refolution back again to his feat. A motion was made that the galleries fhould now be cleared. The houfe divi ded upon the queftion, which was carried in the affirmative by the cafting vote of the fpeaker, there being 41 on each fide. The house remained with clofed doors during the remainder of the day. FROM THE ALBANY CENTINEL, On Tuesday the legiflature made choice of Theodorus Bailey, of the county of Dutchefs, for Senator in Congrefs, in the room of Gouverneur Morris, whofe feat becomes vacant in March next. The votes on this occafion were, for Mr. Bailey 59, for John Woodworth, Efq. 57. It is generally fpoken of by the members of the Legiflature, that Mr. Woodworth would have been elected, had it not been for the officiousness of the A-—y G. in his behalf. Some of his party had firmnefs enough to fhew, by their vote, their difapprobation of his coming within the bar of the Houfe, writing ballots at the defk, and diftributing them among the members; and to fhew alfo that they do not confider him a legiflator, ex officio; or that he has any bufinets to attempt an interference in elections devolving exclufively upon our reprefentatives, until we, the people, fhall write upon our ballots, "TURN THEM OUT." following Royal Order was transcribed, I leized the opportunity of procuring a copy, and have tranflated it in a hurry, under the hope that it will be acceptable to you. "The Minifter of War has commuicated to me the following-" In a letter of the 15th inft. Don Pedro Cevallos, informs me as follows: Whereas his majes ty has ceded to the French Republic the colony or province of Louifiana in all its prefent extent, and AS IT WAS HELD BY THE FRENCH WHEN CEDED TO HIS MAJESTY, I advise you thereof, by his Royal Order, that you make the neceffary arrangements for the delivery of it to the French Commiffioner or commiffioners, who being duly au thorized by the government, may prefent themselves for the purpofe. Which royal determination I have made known to the Captain General of Louifiana, informing him at the fame time, that it is his Majef. ty's pleasure with refpect to the regiment of the place and the military that garrifon the province, that individuals who voluntarily wish to remain under his majesty's dominion, fhall, after delivering up the colony, proceed to the Havannah, where oth er pofts will be allotted them. Of this I advife you by royal order, that you may comply with that part of his royal determination which relates to you. God preferve you many years. SOLER, Minifter of Foreign Affairs. To the Intendant of Louisiana. Madrid, July 30, 1802. [We conceive the foregoing to be a very interefting and important document, inafmuch as it confirms the apprehenfion already expreffed, of the retroceflion of Louifiana being accompanied by a condition alarming to our rights on the Miffiffippi, and in flagrant violation of our treaty with his catholic majefty. The province, as has been predicted, is to be given up to the French as the French gave it to Spain! Hence our future participation in the ufe of the Miffiffippi will depend on the generofity or the juftice of the First Conful, a tenure both precarious and humiliating. Good God, with thefe facts fcreaming in the ears of our administration, will they have the tameness to perfift in an attempt to negociate !] [Philadelphia Gazette.] MARTINSBURG, (P.) JAN. 14. MONEY MAKERS. For fome time paft fufpicions were entertained, that base money was made in the fhop of a certain Streithuff near Sleepy Creek, in this county. To realize thefe fufpicions and detect the perfons engaged in this nefarious procedure, a party of perfons furrounded the fhop on Friday lafl.The fhop was found clofed. One of the party approached near the door when he diftinetly heard the jingle of money. They demanded admittance-the demand was not complied with the door was then forced open, when four men apparently much difmaved, were difcovered; thele men were Compfey, Dowfon, Streithuff and the far-famed and well known Shockey. Many bafe dollars were found, together with a number of crucibles, a quantity of the neceflary ingredients for preparcoining dollars- The four perfons were ing the metal, and all the implements for then arrested and brought to Martinsburgh jail. Their trial came on yesterday before a court, after examining the witneffes and court of inquiry in this town, when the hearing the pleadings, against and in favor of the prifoners, adjudged them to be fent to the diftrict courts holden at Winchester for further trial. The Knot. 47 O N the fuppofition of the truth of the icripture hiftory of the flood, it might reasonably be expected that, altho' that event happened more than four thoufand years ago, the marks of it would be plainly apparent, in the various quarters of the globe. A rain of forty days and forty nights, conftantly rufhing down with af tonishing profufion and impetuofity, ...e cataracts, which is denoted by "opening the windows of heaven," muft have fo loofed the furface of the earth as to change " it almoft into a fluid. The furface and even the deep beds of the earth, being thus loofened and mixed with the waters, muft have been driven by them, hither and thither to great diftances. At the fame time, the breaking up the fountains of the great deep," or opening the "bars and doors" of the vaft ocean, fo that their waters were made to rush over the continents, must have greatly augmented and multiplied the ravages upon the face of the earth. Now, if the hiftory of Mofes concerning the flood, wherein these wonderful circumftances are related, be true, it would be reasonable to expect that the face of the earth fhould ftill difcover the marks of a moft terrible convulfion. It would be reasonable to expect (provided Mofes gave a true hiftory) that there fhould appear, in fome places, horrible precipices, confifting of bare and rugged rocks piled upon rocks; and, in others, frightful caverns, feemingly yawning to the centre of the earth that the foil fhould be utterly fwept off from fome large diftricts, and nothing be feen but barren fands, as in the deferts of Arabia; and that in others, the bodies of large foreft-trees fhould be found under a rich foil and at the depth of twenty or thirty feet that bones of animals, which are peculiar to warm climates, fhould be found in the moft frofty regions; and that there fhould be frequently difcovered beds of fea-fhells, in elevated fituations and at great diftances from the waters in which they were formed, &c. &c. Thefe and fuch like phenomena were, I fay, to have been expected, on the fuppofition that the fcripture hiftory of the flood is true. Of their actual exiftence I fhall treat in my next. W. Agricultural. FOR THE BALANCE. SUBSTITUTES FOR THE SUGAR CANE SOON OON after the commencement of the revolutionary war in this country, all commerce with the Weft-Indies being obftructed, attempts were made to obtain molaffes from the ftalks of Indian Corn. The corn-ftalks, while full of sap, were ground in a mill, like apples, and the fap or juice that was preffed out, was boiled to a fyrup of the confiftence of molaffes. The fubfequent fupplies of fugar, by the capture of a large number of British WeftIndia fhips, prevented this experiment from being carried to any confiderable extent. The fugar-maple is the indigenous fweet cane of North America. If this valuable fpecies of trees were to be raised in nurferies and tranfplanted and diftributed over the country, like the apple-tree, it might produce vaft quantities of fugar. There has been found another fubftitute for the fugar-cane, which, perhaps, may prove fuperior to the fweet-maple. Mr. Athard, of the kingdom of Pruffia, has difcovered a method of making fugar from the root of the white beet. This procefs is faid to have been already bro't to a high degree of perfection in Pruffia; infomuch that coarfe fugar, refined fugar, molafles, &c. are now obtained in large quantities from the white beet, and at a much lefs expence than that of the fugars of India. As beets are easily raised, the time may come, when the farmers in the northern climates of this country, and efpecially thofe who live diftant from navigation, will fupply themselves with fugars and molaffes, from the produce of their own fields. |