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laws which are enacted by the Legislature under the thirteenth section must be determined by the courts of the State. The courts of the State may determine these quastions one way, and the chancellor may determine them another; and hence you will have a clashing between the decision of the chancellor and the courts of the State. It seems to me that such a state of things will inevitably produce confusion; and, to my mind, it presents an unanswerable objection to this report.

[February 25th

tion, so that in this respect the system is highly objectionable.

The gentleman from Des Moines complains of the last legislature, and of prior legislatures of this State, that they have not given sufficient time to the investigation of the common schools of this State; that they have not bestowed sufficient time upon the school laws of this State. I know very well that the last legislature had the disposition to remedy the defects in the school laws, but they were not able to do it. And why? Because, under the old system, so much corruption had crept into the system, that the time of the legislature was taken up in ferreting it out; and they were unable, therefore, to bestow the time that they otherwise would have done upon the general school laws. It was not the want of disposition on their part to remedy the defects that existed in the system, but because they had not absolutely the time to do it.

General Assembly, under the thirteenth section. How would the chancellor be most likely to decide? We must suppose that a chancellor appointed by this Board will be subject to all the infirmities of human nature; that he will be most likely to lean towards his own friends, and if any partiality is shown at all, his decision will be in favor of the power that created him, and gave him life and jurisdiction. It is true that an appeal is provided to the Supreme Court, but in that instance you have your remAnother objection which I have to the adop-nal of the State, only at the end of the litigaedy for carrying the matter to the highest tribution of the system proposed by the majority report is this: We have retained, in the article upon the legislative department, in this Constitution, the veto power over all acts passed by the General Assembly, which can only be overcome by a two-thirds vote of both branches. This report severs the board of education from that power entirely, and no act of this board, no matter how it may come in conflict with the interests of the people, no matter what hardships may grow out of it, can ever be reached by the veto power which we have retained in the Constitution, and which was supported so strenuously by so many members of the Convention. No matter how obnoxious the law may be, it must go to the people as the law of the State. If unconstitutional, or if it has been passed has tily, it cannot be arrested by the exercise of the veto power. Having gone to the people, although it may clash with their interests, although it may retard the growth and development of our common schools, although it may be objectionable in every feature, the people of the State, under this provision of the majority report, have no remedy whatever. If a question should spring up in school districts most remote from the place where this chancellor shall reside and hold his court, no matter how insignificant that question may be, the parties interested can only have a remedy by appeal to the chancellor. In a majority of cases growing out of school laws, that would be an effectual bar against any remedy. Persons will, therefore, be compelled to endure all the difficulties which may spring out of the laws passed by the board of education rather than go to the expense and trouble and submit to the loss of time, which will be inci-ests of the schools at large. dent to an appeal to the chancellor, who alone If we abolish this office, and establish a Board can decide these questions. Such a system as of Education, we can have men elected in difthis will close the door effectually against a ma- ferent portions of the State, under whose conjority of the people of this State, having a set-trol and supervision the school system of the tlement of questions relating to school matters; and, instead of bringing the school system home to the people, instead of giving them control over it, it will effectually remove it from them. Another objection which I have to this system is this. This chancellor depends upon the Board of Education for his official existence, for For these reasons I am in favor of abolishing the Board are to appoint him and give him his that office, and establishing this Board of Edpowers. I ask whether there is not a tempta-ucation, but I cannot go to the length of estabtion placed in the way of this chancellor. Sup-lishing such a system as that provided in the pose a conflict should come up in relation to a majority report. law passed by the Board of Education under the eighth section, and another passed by the

I am in favor of abolishing the office of superintendent of public instruction. I believe that the common schools of this State will be benefited by the abolition of this office, and the establishment of a Board of Education; and I believe it for this reason. Take the past history of this State, or of any other State, where they have had this office of Superintendent of Public Instruction, and it will be found that no one man can attend to the duties devolving upon that office; that no one man can bestow a sufficient amount of time and care upon it, in order to discharge its duties in a manner that will redound to the benefit of the State, and the inter

State will be placed; we can thus bring sentiment to bear directly upon the counsels of the Board in such a manner as will lead to a better system for common schools in the State, than we can possibly have under the old system of Superintendent of Public Instruction.

I am opposed to giving legislative powers to this Board of Education, for the reason that I

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WILSON-HALL.

[February 25 th

consider it would be setting a dangerous prece-ligence of the people is the great bulwark to dent. I can see no reason for giving these the stability and permanency of our institupowers to this Board, which would not also ap- tions, and looking upon it in that light, it is our ply to any other department of the State gov-duty, our absolute and imperative duty, to proernment. The gentleman from Des Moines says vide the best method and the best means for that he wishes to keep this department of the carrying into effect the common school system government free from any other department. of the state, In determining which is the most Keep it independent, he says, and it will add practicable method of arriving at this result, I dignity, character, and effect to its decisions. cannot view the question in the same light in Let me ask the gentleman, whether the same which the gentleman from Des Moines views it. argument will not apply in relation to the Exec- I give him credit for sincerity and honesty in the utive Department of the Government. Suppose views he has submitted in his report, for I think that you confer upon the Governor, Auditor, he has the best interests of the educational deSecretary of State, or any other officer of State, partment of this state at heart. I believe he is powers to make all needful rules and regula- acting fairly, honestly, and zealously in this betions requisite to carry on the Executive De- half; but I must be compelled to differ with him partment of the Government; is not the argu- in relation to the scheme which he has presentment just as strong? Sever that department ed. He has presented some strong arguments from the Legislative Department and you would in favor of his report, but none of them have give it character and importance in the same been sufficient to overcome the objections which degree that you would to this Board of Educa- I have to the system proposed by him. I shall, tion. Apply the same rule in relation to the therefore, support the motion made by the genLegislative Department. Sever that entirely tleman from Lee, [Mr. Johnston.] from the other departments, and let no other Mr. HALL. If the committee will indulge department have any control over it. Take the Judicial department. We have had arguments me, perhaps I shall be able to answer all the here in favor of preserving the dignity and in-objections that gentlemen have urged against I wish to reiterate what I dependence of that body; and gentlemen have said at the beginning of this discussion, that I this majority report. contended that their salaries should be fixed in did not suppose that the details of the system the constitution, and not be dependent upon the which this majority report presents, were peraction of the Legislature. Very well; why not fect or beyond criticism. I again call upon genconfer upon the Judicial Department of the State the power to make all necessary rules and tlemen of the convention to adopt the principle regulations for carrying into effect the Judicial which it contains, and aid me with their judg system of the State, and thereby increase the ment, experience and ability in perfecting the dignity and importance of that branch of the system which the majority report proposes for government? If the argument is good in one ed four out of every five objections that have your adoption. When I say this, I have answercase, it is good in another. been urged against it.

The gentleman from Des Moines also remarked, that in proportion to the power and permanency you give an officer, in like proportion you give him character and efficiency. It seems to me that argument would operate against our republican form of government. If that be the case a monarchy has more power and permanency than a republic. A monarch has more power and permanency, and according to this argument more character and efficiency than a President or a Governor. The argument goes too far and falls of its own weight.

It seems to me that there are questions growing out of this report, which ought to be carefully considered and investigated by this body, for upon this report, in my opinion, depends the very welfare and interest of the common schools of this state. I am satisfied that no member can be more impressed with the importance of protecting the educational interests of the state than I am. I am satisfied that all the members of this convention feel a deep interest in this subject, and none more so than the gentleman from Des Moines, [Mr. Hall.] We must all feel deeply upon this subject, for we all know that upon the intelligence of the masses depend the perpetuity of our government and the safety of our institutions. We know that after all the intel

which I have already endeavored to answer, to The main and the primary objection, and one the system proposed by the majority report is, that it sets up a fourth branch of the government. It does no such thing; it does not take or profess to take from the general assembly any legislative authority over this subject of schools. If gentlemen wish to guard this matter more definitely than it is guarded in this relature, which is already asserted in the constiport, let them re-assert the power of the legistution. This report only gives to this board the same power in the common school interests of the state which you give to the corporations of cities, when they are incorporated under your laws. Our cities have legislative powers. They designate and punish crimes by fines and imprisonment; they pass laws for the regulation of their internal police, and for all matters that pertain to the government of a city. They are a power within a power. There is a necessity for the exercise of these powers on their part. You cannot make a general law for cities which will answer the wants of the whole state; and hence you confer upon the citizens of each city legislative power made effective through a common council. In every department of life where there is an every day neces

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sity for the exercise of these powers, they have been granted by the legislature or by constitutuional authority; and the power of exercising these rights and controlling these matters is just the same, whether it comes through the legislature or the constitution. The question is whether the power here asked shall be conferred upon this board by constitutional provision, or whether it shall be left to legislative enactment; whether power, character and influence shall be given to this board by the primary law of the state or whether it shall be composed of officers who shall be mere automatons, mere machines to carry out the will of the legislature, as it may be expressed whenever they may meet.

If gentlemen will look to the journals of the Legislature, for the last ten years, they will find that that body has not spent thirty hours in the consideration of common schools; a subject in which so large a majority of our citizens take so deep an interest. We have had the experience of ten years of the Legislature upon this subject a body with which gentlemen are so deeply in love, and in which they have so great confidence, and to which they say we would do so much better to entrust the interests of common schools. And what has it done within these ten years to advance the educational interests of the State?

[February 25th

this Board of Education. Let me say to the gentleman, that to the people, peculiarly, should the interests of common schools be confided; for interest in this subject begins in the family, and the cause of education is especially dear to all parents and guardians. The nearer you can bring it home to them, and the farther you can remove it from the arena of political broils and contentions, the better will it be for the prosperity of the State, and the good of the people. Let us take it away from the halls of legislation, where, for the last ten years, they have given it so little consideration, and where we have had nothing but changing and clashing laws upon this subject. It is for this that I am so earnestly contending here, and I believe sincerely, that such a system as the majority have recommended, would meet with the support of the people.

Gentlemen say that this takes the school system out of the hands of the people. Sir, it gives it into the hands of the people. It gives strength to the heart of the man who has children to educate, for he feels that he is not dependent upon a legislature who have been elected and come together to represent party feeling in the most intense form in which it is ever found to exist in legislative bodies. He feels that he has a home to go to; a tribunal In considering this matter and reflecting upon where none of these considerations occupy their it, I desire to go back to the old laws upon this attention. Is my argument a reproach to the subject, see the evils resulting from them, and General Assembly of this State? If it is, it is devise a suitable remedy therefor, if possible. not because I use it. It is because the record I have found the old laws deficient in every par- convicts them. It is because the history tells it. ticular; I have found that in all the legislation It is because their own journal proves it. I upon this subject, there has been one continual wish gentlemen to understand this; and if they clashing and changing. When the code was are disposed to sever this system from the legismade, they patched and patched up the laws lative department of the State; if they are disupon this subject in such a manner when they posed to let it stand by itself; if they are disundertook to modify them, that they are almost posed to let those interested in the subject look inexplicable, and worse than no laws at all. I around and select a tribunal to which this subfind that with ten years experience of legisla-ject shall go, so as not to mix it up with the ten tion, the subject of education has been neglect- thousand other things that pertain to the social ed more than any other matter which has been system, let them act with me and sustain this presented to the notice of the General Assem-report. If they are not satisfied with its debly. tails, let it be amended.

I am, therefore, in view of these considerations, in favor of taking this matter entirely out of the power of the Legislature, and putting it into the hands of another body, who will better represent the interests of the people. I am for putting it into the hands of a body that shall have no control over the funds, and which cannot possibly be influenced by party considerations. Such a body as I propose, will be uninfluenced by partizan feelings and considerations, and their whole and undivided attention will be given to the benefit and improvement of the educational interests of the State. Now, gentlemen beg the question, when they undertake to say that these persons who are elected by the people for this specific purpose, are going to make laws which will come in conflict with the action of the General Assembly.

One gentleman says here, that the people are not the proper persons to appoint the officers of

The gentleman from Davis [Mr. Palmer] says that we shall have to give the Board of Education the control of the funds. I never knew that gentleman so completely mistaken. This system compels the legislature to divide the State into sixteen educational districts, among which the money is to be distributed in proportion to the number of unmarried youths between the ages of five and twenty-one years. This is to be an equal distribution, and is made the duty of the legislature. The Board of Education provide the schools; they furnish the consideration for the money; they decide when the money shall be paid, and paid because it has been earned, and they superintend the establishment of the schools. This is made their duty. There can only be danger if we pre-suppose that the legislature will trample upon the constitution, and that the Educational Board will also trample upon the constitution. The

Wednesday]

HALL.

[February 25th

argument amounts to nothing, because it is pre-stitution of the State which they are all suming crime-a presumption which is not al- sworn to obey before they enter upon the lowable here. The different departments are duties of their office? It strikes me that completely severed. As I said on yesterday, if there is no argument in this; none at all. This this Board of Education should go to any extra- report is too definite, it gives the matter too ordinary length; if they should undertake to much shape, too much vitality, to permit it. become pirates, of which I have not the leastAnd that is another great objection to the report. apprehension in the world, the legislature, as Gentlemen look at it, stare at it, as if they had wil be seen by a clause in that report, remains never seen such a thing before. The idea of supreme and can control them. They have the such a school system, of a department specially veto power, and they can use it. But I have no formed to furnish the primary rules of governidea that there will be one instance of that in ment, a department devoted singly to that parten years. You would not find any conflict, be- ticular interest, is new in this State. I know cause they are all members of the same great this is new; and I do not advocate this in the family-all members of society; and there is a report without the most careful consideration. deep and abiding feeling in favor of institutions Let me tell gentlemen that if they will do as I of learning which all will be willing to corrob- have done, I think they will modify their views. orate. But all cannot stop to think-all cannot In my early life I was for years engaged in stop to reason. teaching. The little education that I have, was In regard to this Chancellor, it is a matter of acquired while teaching in common schools, no consequence to me whether that office is there when I went from house to house to board out, or not. I am not arguing to sustain it, except according to the proportion of the scholars sent, as a matter of convenience. We have had the three days in one place, five days in another, a office ever since we have been a State. Every week in another, and so on. For years I followState in the Union which has adopted any school ed that business, supporting myself and educasystem at all, has that office, under some name ting myself by that process. I have not forgotor other. We shall probably have the office in ten the minutia or the workings of that system. some shape or form. I find that the commis- They are fresh in my mind, as it were of yestersioners of the county perform the duty, for in- day. Since I have been aware that I was to be stance, in one State, the superintendent of pub- a member of this convention, and that it would lic instruction in another. In New York the be my duty here to consider this subject, I have secretary of state, or deputy of the secretary of talked with a hundred men in this State, the state is the chancellor, and has exercised that most intelligent among our farmers, and I have power ever since my recollection. There is no inquired of them their difficulties and troubles inconvenience connected with the office in other in relation to the school system, where they States. The principle exists everywhere. You wanted aid, where they wanted a remedy; and cannot go anywhere, without finding that these they have told me honestly and truthfully. little questions of the dividing up of small dis- They are the men who have provided me with tricts, the positions of the school-houses, and a my arguments. They have had experience in thousand and one other little questions, would the practical workings of our system. They not endanger the harmonizing operation of the have been trying to make it succeed; and they school system, and produce injurious effects, find that the constant changes in the law, and moral and social, if no remedy were provided. the want of attention to the law, clog them and These questions will constantly arise, and we have been a barrier to them in some instances, need a quiet silent way of settling them, with-so that the system has done them more injury out submitting them to the arbitration of the than good. This, they have told me, is the courts; ministerial, if you please, for most of practical effect of our present system of school these things, become ministerial, not involving judicial questions, and may be settled silently without producing the disturbing elements which judicial decisions always produce.

I hope gentlemen are satisfied in regard to the legislature refusing to give the School Board the whole of the proceeds to be devoted to education. The article provides that they shall be distributed, and if the legislature violate the constitution, is that an argument to show that we should not have a constitution? The argument destroys itself; it annihilates itself. Because the Board may violate the constitution,

are we then free to conclude that we should not have a constitution? Would they violate it any the less, if their duties were assigned in the form of law? Would a law, coming from the legislative department, have more influence with the Board, than a provision in the con

districts. I have talked with many of these men, and while I have been here I have never lost an opportunity of conversing with every man I could find with any intelligence upon this subject. I have obtained my experience from the fountain-head, from the father, from the guardian, from those trying and anxious to make the system succeed, who have struggled along for ten years with this system, who have had families to educate, and have only been able to rely upon this common school system to educate them. I must ask a little favor, and a little charity, of our bachelor friends who have no

children to educate. We must look to those who are striving to educate their children, and allow full weight to their testimony and their experience.

I hope we shall in this constitution turn this over to a tribunal as pure as it can be made;

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even if it should come from the muddy mire of politics, it will yet be as pure as we can find. If we can only get the Board from that muddy pool, it is no objection at all; for we shall not take them indiscriminately, but select the purest we can find. And there is not a gentleman here who would deny that if we were to take twelvé or eighteen members of the legislature, drawn by lot, they would devise a better system, and the schools would be better controlled, better organized, and more efficient, than if the subject were to be left to the whole legislature, to take its place with a multitude of others claiming prior attention, and thus to be neglected while mem

[February 25th

dignity, character and stability to the institutions, we all profess to admire and desire to cherish. I have reflected much upon this subject. I know that I em far beneath what I ought to be. I know that my views have not had culture enough; but still I think I have investigated the subject more than some gentlemen here. I hope gentlemen will not strike this out without consideration. I hope they will not be satisfied with merely finding fault, without proposing any amenament to remedy the fault.

One word with regard to the minority report, bers are attending to other duties. And if gen- although, perhaps, I said enough upon that yestlemen will concede this, as I am sure they will, It has no efficiency. When the people ask for terday. The minority report is meaningless. why should they stand here fearful lest in turn-bread it gives them but a stone. It has no viing this matter over to stand by itself, appealing tality. It has no character. It is nothing but to the benevolence as well as the justice of the people, you are about to destroy it? Why should they suppose that it has within it the seeds of disorganization and decay? If its success and prosperity do not reside in the hearts of persons interested, in the fathers and mothers and guardians of the country, where will you find them? Cannot these persons select? Are they not sufficiently interested to make a proper selection? Does all the patriotism in our State linger in the hearts of the members of our legis

lature? It would seem so. It would seem that gentlemen are very much alarmed lest this matter should be left to the man who educates his children, lest it should be left to the heads of families. They are afraid there will be too much form. They are afraid that we shall give this system, when it comes into existence, life and vitality, power to regulate, power to perform, strength and character. This is what they are afraid of.

an automaton. It is a man of straw. It is just
like what we have always had; and that is the
reason given why we should adopt it. You can-
not make our present system worse.
If you go
dition is no worse by the change. That is no ar-
out of the frying pan into the fire, your con-
Are you afraid? Are you ap-
gument at all.
Because you give
prehensive? Of what?
character, stability, strength, independence to
the system? Because you call for efforts of

mind?

Because you hold men responsible for something? I hope this convention will not adjourn until they create a school department. Are they afraid to give it that dignity, lest it and judiciary departments, and over-ride them should overwhelm the legislature, the executive, all? And what if it could exercise a controlthey are all but the children the offspring of ling influence over them? Depend upon it that this great principle for which I contend. Without it, they cannot long be what you are trying If you put a man into the position of a mere to make them. Do not be alarmed lest you copyist; if you make him a mere automaton, a should make this common school system a great mere follower, you shut out the lights of his monopoly. Do not be alarmed lest it should intellect; you crush the power to rise, you tear become a despot, and you should see the hand asunder all the inducements to ambition. You of the tyrant in this matter. If you can give make of him a mere nothing. And yet you ex- efficiency to the common school system; if you pect this common school system to flourish. I can put the book into the hands of the child, would give to those who superintend the schools and teach him to read and to write, and give enough to employ their intellect. I would give to him the rudiments of learning, if you can inthem encouragement to inform themselves upon oculate him with a true love of science and the subject. I would hold them responsible, virtue, and if that is to bring tyrants here, I intellectually, for what they have done. When do not care how thick or how fast they come. you find men waking up to that responsibility, It will be the tyranny of reason, the tyranny of to feel an interest, and to know that their rep-intellect, the tyranny of morality. It will be a utation depends upon the course they pursue, you will see the result. If you will only give these men something to make a reputation out of, you will find that ambition is not an antidote to liberty, but one of its incentives; and when combined with virtue, with that as a polar star, we have nothing to fear.

Now I wish to urge it upon gentlemen here to think upon this subject, to look at it. I do not care how much time you take for deliberation, for they will feel conscious that this matter is right, that this plan is the best we can adopt, and the only one we can adopt, which will give

tyranny that will make every virtue to abound, which can adorn society. This will never endanger our liberties. You cannot, by holding out to the child the love of knowledge, make, him the friend of despotism. You cannot, by giving efficiency to that which brings education and intelligence into the land, nurse the viper of tyranny or despotism.

Perhaps I have occupied more time than I should; but I repeat again that I ask the convention to consider most thoroughly all the principles contained in this report, which is to give independence to the school interest, which

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