sober sadness, to see the day when our ministers wud sit wi' yours, and feast and fun wi' them. My heart is wae at it, and sae are mony ma'e. It does not augur well; laxity and latitudinarianism are the signs and forerunners o' corruption. What a falling off has there been amang us since the days o' Ebenezer ! Ae thing has followed on the heels o' another, corruption after corruption. Our fathers considered gowns, and bands, and the dignity o' Doctor, as a' belonging to the Papistical kirk; but now we ha'e got them a' in amang us, wi' hymns, and light tunes to them, that just mind me o' "Up and war them a', Willie-up and war them a'," or "Bonnie Maggie Lauder." Oh John, there's been a fearfu' delusion amang us. We're getting far aboon you. Our meeting-houses are far brawer than your kirks, and they want naething but an organ in them to mak' them as grand as an English chapel. Corinthian pillars, nae less; velvet cushions, and silk gowns. Oh! what wou'd Ralph, and Wilson, and Moncrieff, ha'e said to this!

John.-A' thae I consider improvements. Religion does not consist "in meats and drinks ;" in wearing, or not wearing, a gown and bands, or lawn sleeves, but " in righteousness, and peace, and joy." You emitted to mention, in your enumeration, the greatest of all your improvements, and one of the most marked of increasing liberality;" that is, the late union o' the twa great dissenting bodies. From that step I augur weel, and hope to see the day when you'll lay down the last weapon o' your rebellion, and join again the mother church, frae whom ye ha'e been sae lang separated.

Thomas.-Never; no, never, John; though there war nae ither thing to prevent that but the assumed power o' the civil magistrate, which your church allows in his confession o' faith, and that o' patronage. These would keep us separate.

John.-These, if rightly understood by you, Thomas, would be nae bar in the way. Our confession o' faith grants naething to the civil magistrate but what ony magistrate ought to ha'e; and gin he has not, he ought to ha'e. The Scripture unites

the chief magistrate wi' religion; "kings are to be nursing fathers, and queens nursing mothers," to the church. Ecclesiastical power, when opposed to the violence of unruly men, is feeble and unarmed, without the aid of human authority; and, connected as religion is, and ever must be, in every civilized country, as the bond of society, it cannot surely be wrong in the civil magistrate to protect the ministers o' religion in the preaching o' the word, and celebration of ordinances; and to call "synods of ministers, and other fit persons, to consult and advise with about matters of religion." As to the chief magistrate either having or claiming any power over the sacred rights of conscience, in what way men shall worship God, there is no such thing in Britain. The chief magistrate interferes in no shape wi' the consciences o' the people. The religious opinions o' those wha live inoffensively are never by him inquired after; every dissenter and every human being he permits to worship God after his own manner, and as his conscience dictates to him. The Independents secured this right at the glorious Revolution, when it was reprobated by every other sect in the nation. The legislature adopted it then; and through the steady operation of law, and the progress of science, and the enlightenment o' the human mind, as ample liberty o' conscience is enjoyed by all ranks as can be desired. Every pain and penalty, formerly incurred for worshipping God according to conscience, is now completely removed, and every sect and party, with all their places o' worship, are under the protection o' law; sae that nae individual, be he who he may, is subjected to the slightest restraint on conscience, in consequence o' his religious opinions, while those opinions are not hurtfu' to the essential interests o' society, and disturb not the public peace, or outrage decency and piety. If a man, however, was to plead conscience for propagating Atheism,

for speaking blasphemy, for being permitted to be a mocker and reproacher o' religion,-a profaner o' the Lord's-day,-uttering impious things against the being and attributes o' God,-scoffing at or railing against devotion-were a man to plead

conscience for committing these, the civil magistrate would unquestionably interfere; but not as interfering with the rights o' conscience, but as vindicating the rights, the outraged rights, of civil society and good order. In punishing the early Anabaptists, who ran through Germany naked, lashing their bodies wi' small cords, and herding thegether, in that state, like the beasts o' the field; the magistrate punished this behaviour, disregarding their religious plea of conscience for it; because it was an outrage upon public decency and decorum,-a species o' open lewdness so gross and scandalous as to be punishable at common law. But, whilst the magistrate is entitled to punish these offences against religion and morality, as offences against the police and gude order o' the community, he intermeddles not wi' religious sentiments, nor persecutes any one on account of his faith or practice, when these are innoxious, and do not interfere wi' the civil interests o' the State.

Thomas. What say ye, John, to the Test Act, and the disabilities o' the Catholics? Are thae nae interference wi' the rights o' conscience? Has na the community a right to a' the talents o' a' the citizens? and is na it injurious to the public, and to individuals, to exclude from civil offices ony on account o' his religious opinions, which he conscientiously holds? Is a sacramental test for a civil office no a prostitution and profanation of sacred things, in which conscience is deeply concerned? Answer thae questions, John, gin ye can; I think they'll fash ye sair, while they confute your positions and assertions.

John.-Still fu' o' self, Thomas; ye might, by this time, ha'e remembered the wise saying, "Let not him that girdeth on his harness, boast himself as he that putteth it off." The disabilities o' Papists or Catholics are na in consequence o' their religious tenets; they ha'e the rights o' conscience, in this respect, as much as ony heart among them could wish. They may worship God as often as they please,-they may say prayers and perform mass every hour if they please, the sacraments they are at equal liberty to take,-nay, to pro

strate themselves before the Virgin, and to seek the aid o' a' the saints. There is not a thing connected wi' their religion that they have not full toleration and freedom to perform. There is not the least restraint upon them, in that respect, more than if they were living in Rome. Nay, they have civil privileges granted to them, which, by law, are na even given to the Established Church o' Scotland, or Presbyterians in England. Every Catholic has a right, in Ireland, to vote for a Member o' Parliament, who has either rents, or cultivates a farm, of £.20 a-year, in addition to his freehold, or who shall be in possession of a freehold of £.20 per annum; while he can enter into the army and navy, and hold there his rank, without being called upon to comply with the Test Act, but merely on their taking the cath of allegiance to Government.

Thomas.-What would they be at, when they ha'e a' this?

John. They want to be Members o' Parliament,-to sit in the King's Cabinet,-to have a right to fill every civil office in the State, to be Judges, Lord Chancellor, Commander-in-Chief, and Commissioners o' the Admiralty, and Chancellor and Treasurer of the Exchequer. Along wi' this, they want to get rid o' the tithes, and the Church o' Ireland, and to have Popery substituted in its place.

Thomas. My faith, they're no blate. But I see they verify the auld proverb: "Let the de'il get in his wee finger, and he'll soon ha'e in his hail hand." Gi'e them thae, and they'll soon hae in Popery athegither. They want naething but the power. They ha'e the will. But gi'e them power, and my eertie they'll no be lang till we ha'e the Inquisition back, and be led back to the Church o' Rome wi' faggot and fire. The auld spirit is in them, and gif yon fallow O'Connell had his will, if we can judge by his words, o' his hatred against Orangemen, no ane o' them is there that he wou'dna mak' his head leap frae its hause in a twinkling. God keep us frae Papists and their rule! I would rather forego a' the ills o' the Test Act, than gi'e them power; our toleration would then be gone, for Popery knows o' no tolera→ tion. It counts us a' heretics, and

their law condemns a' heretics to the dungeon, the faggot, or the block. Yes! gi'e them power-let them into Parliament, and we shou'd soon be delivered over to the secular arm, if we wou'd not submit peaceably. The bloody contests o' our fathers wou'd ha'e to be renewed, and a civil war carried on in a manner mair savage than that o' barbarians. Whan I think, John, o' the Church o' Rome, -whan I rin owre her history,-whan I view her at the Reformation, operating on St. Bartholomew's - day, massacring in Ireland, and in our ain kintra, the iniquitous judgements she pronounced on those she suspected to differ from her tenets the loss o' their estates-their confinement in dungeons-their torture on the rack-their consuming them in the flames wi' the solemnity o' a sacrifice, and wi' a' the cruelty and torments which the ingenuity of the most refined, but diabolical malice, could devise ;-when I think on a' thae, my verrie flesh creeps-my hair stands on end-and if our King, and his Ministry, and Parliament, be not firm, I tremble to look into futurity. We are on the brink o' a precipice, which naething but firmness, and keeping to our glorious Constitution, as settled at the Revolution in 1688, can save us.

John.-Weel, Thomas, whar's your exclamation about the Catholics now-and their disabilities, and their hardships, &c.?

Thomas.-I see we often speak without thinking, sometimes frae ig. norance, and sometimes frae the sough frae ithers, and say as they say, ne'er thinking o' the consequences. It has been the fashion among us dissenters to plead for the Catholics, thinking, that if they got emancipation, we wou'd get free o' the Test Act, which excludes us, as dissenters, from a' offices o' State, as well as the Catholics. And surely, whan there's nae danger to the State, as there can be nane frae Protestants, the Test Act ought to be abolished ought it no?

John.-It's o' no consequence, Thomas, whether it be abolished or not-nae ane is injured by it. The Act o' Indemnity frees a' frae its operation. The Kirk o' Scotland is as muckle affected by the Test Act,

though an Established Kirk, as either the dissenters in England or Scotland. But the fact is, though at first baith they and we had reason to complain, we ha'e nane now. The Bill o' Indemnity, which passes yearly, mak's it a dead letter on the Statute Book, from which no Presbyterian or Protestant dissenter suffer the least prejudice. The truth is, Thomas, few are capable o' judging these nice questions. There is a wide difference, however, you maun see, betwixt penal statutes inflicting punishments on individuals for nonconformity to the Established Church, or the religion o' the State, and that of a Test touching civil offices; the one is persecution intolerant and unjust the other is merely a question of State policy or expediency, not of justice or right. Men enter into society for some defined and specific gude. A nation, as well as a family, may enact peculiar laws, which bind its members; each giving up something o' their natural liberty for some general advantage; or the minority may comply with or be bound by the will o' the majority. Every nation, therefore, has its own laws, consonant to, and founded on its habits, customs, and localities, &c. &c. The great end o' their union is the security o' their property and lives. For the preservation o' these, they ha'e a right to say what the criterion shall be by which offices o' the State are to be held. They have a right to say whether it shall be wealth, or age, or civil or religious opinionswhether the Government shall be democracy, oligarchy, or despotism; and whether their King, Generals, Judges, and Members o' Parliament, shall be Presbyterians, Independents, Episcopalians, or Catholies. This is a matter purely discretionary at the settling o' the Constitution. In 1688 our fathers did this;-while they left every man, except the Catholics, to the full enjoyment o' their perfect rights, they determined that, from the King on the throne, to the meanest officer in the State, all should be Protestants-to the entire exclusion of Papists, who then, as now, were considered the enemies o' Protestantism, and consequently of civil and religious liberty, and who, by their

plots and intrigues, had rendered themselves incapable of holding any civil office consistent with the security o' the State and the Protestant Religion. This is the exact state o' matters. They were excluded on the footing of expediency, on the idea of danger to Protestantism and civil and religious liberty; and the whigs, and every one who has been so loud in praising and extolling, deservedly, the excellency o' our Constitution, must retract their eulogiums, if, for the sake o' the Catholics and the security of Protestantism, they destroy that Constitution under which Great Britain has flourished, and taken her stand, conspicuously, among the nations o' the earth, for her superior intelligence, liberty, and laws for every thing that can adorn man, and add to the comforts and elegancies of refined life.

Thomas.-Weel, a' this is new light to me. Till this hour, I did na ken but that the Test laws were operating against us, as dissenters, in a' their force, and that we had a natural right, and a constitutional right, to ha'e them ta'en off. But since the Bill o' Indemnity prevents ony damage, and allows a' Protestants to enjoy civil offices o' a' kinds, unmolested, I see na what cause we ha'e to complain, or mak' sic a wark and noise about a thing that hurts us not, "gif it binna for down-right party-divelry." If ye satisfy me as weel about the power o' patronage, as ye ha'e done about the power o' the magistrate owre our consciences, which I see is a' BLETHERS, I'll count you cleverer, John, than e'er I thought you, and will be your

convert.

John. As to that, Thomas, you may do as you like. It is o' little consequence to me whether you think me clever or no. Ye ha'e sometimes praised me for shrewdness whan I didna deserve't, and ca'd me a fool whan the event showed I was wise.

Thomas.-A' true, John; but ye ken we maun just speak as we "think." Like a' the rest o' the warld, I am ever ready to measure ithers by mysel'. But tell me your real mind about PATRONAGE, for that, in truth, is the great wa' or partition that divides me frae the kirk.

John-You'll no thank me for't, whan ye ha'e heard it. Though I bring a' things hame to yoursel', you'll be faithless and unbelieving, Thomas; the auld seceder-root will still remain wi' thee, and though obliged to own facts, thou'll just continue the auld man as muckle as

ever.

Thomas.-Na'; I winna do that, John. Though I'm a seceder frae reason, and not frae pique, I frankly confess to you, that patronage is my great stumbling-block. In a' ither things, I see nae difference betwixt us and the kirk ava. In doctrine, worship, discipline, we're a' ane: though, to say the truth, we are farther frae the Confession o' Faith and the pure auld standards o' the church, than you are.

John.-Patronage is ane o' the most difficult problems to solve that I ever attempted. In the hail range o' political economy, nane has puzzled me sae muckle. The question is, what is the system o' patronage -for patronage maun be in some hands-which combines the greatest gude, and promotes maist the religious interests o' the parish? For these objects, Thomas, several systems are in use. There are yours and ours, while some are for patronage confined to the heads o' families, and others are for universal suffrage! The rule I lay down is, that whatever system will best promote the unity and harmony o' a parish, prevent party-heats, animosities, illwill among friends and parishioners, and tend to cement the parish wi' the minister in brotherly-love and good-fellowship, is the best. Now, to this test bring the above system. Universal suffrage would set the hail parish into a flame. It would be a stage for mountebanks; and as the irreligious, and indifferent about all religion, are the majority, those who could feed them best, and bribe them highest, would be sure to carry the day. The consequence would be, that in nine cases out o'ten the most worthless would get the kirk. Were it confined to heads o' families, and communicants in fellowship wi' the kirk, the same thing nearly would go on, though not to the same extent. Candidates, perhaps half-adozen, or a dozen, might be put upon

the leet, and a' the evils o' election, and a' the vile arts accompanying it the secret detraction-the malignant whisper-the false accusation-wi' every means o' detraction and abuse that could be raked up against the characters and talents o' the several candidates, would be collected and thrown in their face. In this state o' things, whoever gets the church would get it wi' tarnished fame and a diminished reputation-which, though his friends would not remember, his opponents will; while they find, too, the operation of their own calumny, like the poison in the head o' the serpent, ever ready to distil and to destroy all that is vital and energetic in his ministration; while a secret distrust lingers in the mind, that their conduct, by the minister whom they sae keenly opposed and reviled, is not forgotten by him, and though his prudence allows it to sleep, yet, when the proper season arrives that he can make it bear upon them or their family effectually, he will, and that severely. This is the reason, Thomas, why I think your system so exceptionable. It produces, on every election, those heats, animosities, and heart-burnings, which often never subside, but which occasionally rise to such an effervescence, as to make a part boil over, and run down, and form a party by itself. On these occasions I have sometimes seen three distinct patrons lording it owre the poor congregation, 1st, the managers, 2d, the elders, and 3d, the persons who had money lent on the house. I ha'e seen a' these set against the general mind o' the congregation, and though a handfu' in opposition to the hundreds o' that congregation, yet protesting against the election, chusing a man for themselves, and by carrying their protest to the Presbytery and Synod, actually getting owre the belly o' the congregation the man they had chosen! There is thus a new element introduced into your patronage, which is not found in ony o' the other schemes-and that element is the Presbytery and Synod-giving to you twa patrons instead o' ane. This element rules you as it willeth. Its power extends not only over the congregation, but the preachers. Should you choose

a preacher, they may deprive you o' him, and send him to anither congregation. Should the preacher prefer you, he cannot gratify his inclination; he must go where the Presbytery appoints him! This tyranny is cruel and excessive, and such as is not known in the church. Both preacher and people are thus under the patronage o' the clergy, than which I know none more exceptionable, more tyrannical, and often more unjust and cruel. This arbitrary conduct has disgusted many, young men of talents among them, and made them leave their society, long before the case o' Dunferm line and Mr White was heard of. This, Thomas, is my serious conviction respecting your system o' patronage, which, I have no hesitation in saying, after having looked narrowly into its practical working for these twenty years, is next to universal suffrage, the verra worst that could be devised.

Thomas. And is this, John, your real conviction and belief?

John. It is, and ye needna gang far frae hame to be convinced o' its truth. How was that respectable congregation treated, in K-nock, after that good man's death, the Rev. Mr J-ff-y? Didna a handfu' o' the rich get their ain man, though opposed by hundreds o' the congregation? Did the Presbytery or Synod take their part? Yes, Thomas; they sided wi' the rich. And after they spent great sums, and muckle trouble, in ganging frae Presbytery to Synod, and frae Synod to Presbytery, and the courts o' law, they could na, after a', get their choice,at least they could na get the man they wanted, and that's the same thing.

Thomas.-But, if they did na get him, they would get some ither choice. For, wi' a' the ills o' our patronage, we aye get our ain choice at the last.

John. Yes, Thomas; as Jacob got Rachel, who was ta'en frae him for seven years. I ha'e often heard you say that you liked Nanse, your wife, aboon a' the women in the world; and she is well worthy o' a' your affection, for she is a douce, soney, well-conditioned woman, as is in a' the parish; but how wouldst