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have not formed some opinion, one way or another about the dressing of the statue?-If I was to form an opinion, I would conceive that every man in Dublin has formed some opinion upon it.

Do you conceive those men who were on the grand jury, having, in common with the rest of the citizens of Dublin, formed such an opinion, they were men who would have perverted justice on their oaths, by finding a partial verdict, in consequence of those opinions they had formed?—I do not.

By Mr. Brougham.-Your sub-sheriff, Mr. Whistler, is an attorney?—He is.

How often has he served the office of subsheriff?—I believe this is the second time; it is many years since he served before.

There is a bye law, or an act of parliament, which prevents a person serving oftener than once in three years, is there not?-I understand there is.

Who served the office of sub-sheriff the year before Mr. Whistler ?-Mr. Archer.

Who is Mr. Archer?-An attorney.

Is he at all connected with Mr. Whistler? I am almost certain not.

Do you know of any person in the employment of Mr. Whistler serving the office of sub-sheriff the year before?-No, serving as sub-sheriff a year or two before; there is no such clerk in the office as Mr. Archer.

Did you ever hear of an understanding between the persons who are to be recommended, to be assisted in the election by the Amicable Society, an understanding between them and the common-council or the Society, as to the conduct they are to hold while they are sheriffs? -No, I do not know that there is any such compact.

There is nothing in writing, but is there any thing understood between them?-I do not think there is any understanding.

Any thing understood between them as to the patronage of offices ?-1 think not.

You must be quite sure of that, one way or another, in your own case?-In my own case I am certain of it; as to the patronage of the office, certainly not.

You have no recollection yourself, of any understanding as to the line you were to adopt in the conduct of your office?-No.

Is there not a considerable degree of patronage in the power of the sheriff?—No, not to my knowledge.

Do they not name to a number of things?— To none but the sub-sheriff.

That is the only appointment they have?— Yes, I believe so.

Is that the only appointment you yourself have named to, or had a share in naming to? -The only appointment.

Is there not a keeper of the sheriff's prison?

The year before Mr. Archer, did the person-There is. who was a clerk in the employment of Mr. Have they nothing to do with the nominaWhistler serve the office of sub-sheriff?—No. tion of the keeper?-The nomination of the Do you know it one way or the other?—under officers of the prison comes from the subNo; I know there is no sheriff has served, an sheriff. under clerk to Mr. Whistler; nor connected with him in any way.

Who elects the sheriff?-The commons; there are a number sent from the commons to the board of aldermen, and from this number the two sheriffs are chosen.

Do you mean by the commons, council-men?—Yes.

the common

Did you ever hear of a society called "The Amicable Society?"-I have.

Is it composed of common-council-men ?— There are a number of common-council-men in it.

Are the bulk of the society common-couneil-men ?--No, they are not.

Are a considerable number of the members of it common-council?-As members of the society, there are a good many common-council-men.

Do the Amicable Society exercise an influence upon the election of sheriffs?-They recommend the friends of that society, I rather think.

Do they not exercise a considerable influence in the choice of the sheriff? They do, rather in the returns, not in the choice of sheriff.

In the return to the aldermen of those out of whom they are to choose?—Yes.

Does that include the keeper of the sheriff's prison? The sub-sheriff named him, and I concurred in the appointment.

Do you mean that the sub-sheriff is the man who appoints those officers, or does he submit the names to the sheriff?-He submitted those names; and I concurred in his appointment.

Do you recollect any other of those inferior officers?-No; only the officer under him, which is his clerk in the sheriff's office, and this.

Are those officers changed with every subsheriff?-They are not, I believe.

They continue in them after the time when the sheriff is changed?-When they are wellbehaved persons, I conceive they do.

Is the office of the sub-sheriff a lucrative one?-I believe it depends upon circumstances. I dare say it may be worth from 600 to 7001. a year.

Does he account for the fees to the highsheriff?-He does.

Does he pay any other consideration to the high-sheriff, besides accounting for the fees?— Not that I know of; not to me.

The sub-sheriff gives you a security, does he not?-He does.

Would you not consider yourself interfering with the safety of that security, if you interfered with his appointment of those officers,

How many are sent up to the aldermen ? such as the keepers of the gaol, and others you Eight. VOL. IX.

have alluded to?-It would.


By Sir G. Hill.-Amongst the citizens of Dublin, do you not think that, generally, each man in society has formed his opinion upon the propriety of what is called, granting the Roman Catholic claims?-I rather think they have, almost every man in Dublin.

Are you of opinion, that a man who is hostile to the Roman Catholic claims is disqualified as a grand juror, or incapable from that circumstance of performing his duty as grand juror, upon his oath ?--I do not.

Have you joined in a panel for a term or presenting grand jury at any other time?—No. Have you ever served individually upon either term or commission grand juries?-Į have on both.

What kind of persons composed the term or presenting grand juries ?-Principally the corporation of Dublin.

Are there any other individuals upon them? a-I do not know that there have been.

Then, comparing that grand jury with other grand juries that you have known sworn in the city of Dublin, do you think that grand jury was as capable of performing its duty conscientiously as any one you have known?-In my opinion they were.

By Lord Milton.-The panel was formed out of a list written in Mr. Sheriff Thorpe's hand-writing?—I believe it was.

You suggested the propriety of striking off some names in that list?-Yes; I think three; and others were substituted.

In point of fact, the panel, as it stood, consisted of names, all of which were suggested by Mr. Sheriff Thorpe ?-They were sure; those struck off, and those substituted in the place of them, that we mutually agreed on.

Were there any substituted in the room of those struck off?-There were.

By whom were they suggested?-I think they were mutually agreed upon by both of us. By whom were they suggested?-I really think, that, taking the almanack, we spoke on several citizens probably, and took them from those names that we mutually talked of.

But not particularly suggested by you? We agreed that those persons should be sub

stituted in the room of the others.

Were they suggested by you, did they come from a list you suggested?-No; I had no list. By Mr. Goulburn.-When you met sheriff Thorpe, for the purpose of arranging the panel, did you know what bills were to be brought before the grand jury, against whom?-I conceived of course, those men who were in prison, with any others, for the riot in the theatre. Did you know that a person of the name of M'Culler, was to be indicted before that grand jury?-Not at that time I did not.

Mr. Joseph Henry Moore was on that grand jury? He was.

Was he proposed originally by Mr. Sheriff Thorpe?-He was in the list.

Do you know whether he bears any relation to Mr. M'Culler?-Not to my knowledge. I do not know any further than having heard he was his clerk.

Has not Mr. Moore been in the habit of attending the commission grand juries constantly? He has, frequently.

Do you happen to know that Mr. Moore's sister is married to the provost of Dublin University?—I do not know it, as my own knowledge, but I believe it to be so.

By Mr. S. Rice. Were you a party to the panel in October, 1822?—I was not.

Do you know, as sheriff of Dublin, whether it is the usage to select those grand juries out of the members of the corporation?-I believe it is, generally.

Is the serving on a commission grand jury, considered a burthen or an advantage ?—It would be considered an inconvenience to men in business.

Is the serving on a presenting grand jury, considered as a burthen or an advantagedeclare, I do not know the advantages of it; I would avoid them; I never was but on one.

On the commission grand jury on which you served, how many members of the corporation were there?—I should suppose the number to be 10, or 12, or 14.

Can you state, whether there is a general anxiety to serve on a presenting grand jury?I have heard it, but I do not know it accurately.

Do you believe, that there is a general disinclination to serve on the commission grand juries?-Some men will serve on the commission grand juries, in consequence of their being short, to avoid being put on others.

By Mr. Hume.-You have stated, that in consequence of a letter which you received from the crown solicitor, you attended Mr. Sheriff Thorpe, where is that letter, and can you produce it?-I have the letter perfectly safe at home.

You have stated, that you went to Mr. Sheriff Thorpe in consequence of that letter, and found that he had drawn out the list of the panel, which he produced to you; in consequence of the discussion which took place, was any alteration mede in the order in which the names were placed upon that list?-There were alterations made in that respect, moving the names up.

You have stated that several of the corporation applied to you to be excused from serving, can you remember the names of such corporators as prayed to be excused?-I remember Mr. Forster applying.

You have stated, that you did not consider, and do not consider the seven names, which you read from the paper which you hold in your hand, to be violent party men; will you state whether you consider Mr. Sheriff Thorpe a violent party man or a moderate party man? -I would consider him inclined to party, but as to violence it is a difficult matter for me to form an opinion.

Do you consider Mr. Sheriff Thorpe a decided party man?—Oh, I think him a party man, decidedly.

Do you consider those seven individuals less

party men than Mr. Sheriff Thorpe ?-I would consider some of them less party men, and some probably have similar feelings.

Will you state any one of those seven, whom you consider more decidedly party men than Mr. Sheriff Thorpe ?-I would consider Mr. Graham and Mr Stevens as more moderate.

If Mr. Sheriff Thorpe had been one of the jurymen, would you have considered him objectionable, as a strong party man, to try such a cause?-Had he taken the oath as a juror, I would have considered him perfectly eligible. By Mr. Brougham.-Did the sheriff send a copy of the panel, when it was settled, either to the crown solicitor, or to the attorneygeneral, or to the castle?-I do not think he did; not to my knowledge.

You have stated, that, according to your opinion, the panel could not be called an Orange panel; and you have stated also that you do not know the political feelings of the persons upon it; what ground have you, therefore, for forming an opinion, that it was not an Orange panel?—I had no grounds for forming an opinion on it; I know no man upon it to be an Orange-man,

You stated, that three or four names were removed, with the concurrence of your brother sheriff, and as many more substituted in their places, upon what grounds were those persons so removed; was it political grounds, or for misconduct, in your view ?—Not from political feelings.

The House resumed. The Chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again.


Tuesday, May 6.

SHERIFF OF DUBLIN-INQUIRY INTO HIS CONDUCT.] The House having again resolved itself into a Committee on the Conduct of the Sheriff of Dublin, sir R. Heron in the Chair,

Mr. Barrett Wadden was called in; and

By Mr. J. Williams.—Where do you reside? -In Palace-street, Dublin.

What is your situation in life?-That of a silk-manufacturer.

Do you know a person of the name of M'Connell?-I do. He was before this House last night. He is my wife's son by a former husband. I saw him the Wednesday after the "riot in the theatre.

Did he make any communication to you, about that time, of any thing that he had heard? -He did.

What was it that he stated to you at that time?-He expressed his surprise at the conduct of Mr. Sheriff Thorpe, in whose company he had been the preceding evening: his identical words were, "that the sheriff had not only betrayed great ignorance, but that his con

duct was so extraordinary, that he could scarcely believe the man to be in the right use of his senses; that there were a number of persons present, namely, the sheriff, the sheriff's lady, Mrs. Sibthorpe, Mrs. Sibthorpe's daughter, John M'Connell, young Mr Sibthorpe, and William Graham, one of the rioters, or at least one of the persons supposed to be a rioter in the theatre the preceding evening, that they were playing at cards, and that William Graham in playing the knave of clubs, threw it down and said, "there's the lord mayor and be damred to him, I wish he were out of office till I could have a lick at him;" that Mrs. Sibthorpe sat in one corner of the room, and she said, "how could you do it, for you are too little;" Graham was a very small man, and his answer was, " by God, I would jump up and have a lick at his neck;" that the sheriff then said, "be damned to the marquis Wellesley, we shall do no good in this country until he is out of it." That in another part of the evening, a question was asked by John M'Connell. namely, what is likely to become, or what is likely to be done with the persons now in confinement for the alleged riot?" and that the question was put by John M'Connell, not to any particular person in the room, but it was answered by the sheriff, "they are in safe hands; I will give them a jury that will acquit them, for I have an Orange panel in my pocket," at the same time tapping his pocket. This was the communication made to me the Wednesday evening following; the conversation having occurred in Mrs. Sibthorpe's parlour the Tuesday evening; and certainly I did consider the communication to be of that importance, that I was only discharging the duty I owed my fellow citizens and my country at large, in communicating it to the government, which I did. He also informed me, that sheriff Thorpe, when he retired home, in buttoning up his coat, just as they opened the door, said, "well, at all events, be damned to the marquis Wellesley." I received this information on Wednesday; the following day I communicated it to the government; and on the Saturday following, John M'Connell was summoned up to the castle; and the matter there, I believe, taken upon oath. I communicated it to Mr. Matthews, the private secretary of the lordlieutenant. In consequence of that communication, the attorney-general had a conversation with me about the matter.

Did you state to the attorney-general, what you have mentioned to this committee now?— The principal part of it.

Have you been unfortunate in trade?-Extremely so; for I have been a bankrupt.

Have you obtained your certificate?—No, for I did not want to obtain it; the commission having been superseded, and I reinstated in my business, to the satisfaction of my creditors; for I have but two in the world.

Have you, at any time, been compelled to leave Ireland?-I have never been compelled to leave my house for one moment.

By Col. Barry.-You have said, that you stated part of what you have now stated, to the attorney-general, and part you did not; will you state, what part you did not state?-The communication that I made to the attorneygeneral, in the first instance, principally alluded to the expressions that were used by Graham, as applicable to the lord mayor. Our lord mayor of Dublin is a card-maker, and when the knave of clubs was thrown down by Graham, it was accompanied by that expression as applicable, not only to the lord mayor as such, but as cardmaker; and the communication I made to the attorney-general, as it related to Mr. Sheriff Thorpe, was the expressions I have stated the sheriff to have used, as applicable to the marquis Wellesley; for I should state, that the whole of the evidence that I have now given to the House was not communicated to me by John M'Connell at one time.

Did you mention those remarkable circumstances of having an Orange panel in his pocket, to the attorney-general, in your first interview?-I did not.

Why did you not ?-Because the communication had not been made to me. I would divide the communication into two parts; the first was made to me on the Wednesday following the riot in the theatre; the second, as applicable to the Orange panel, was made to me on the following Saturday morning.

When did you mention that to the attorneygeneral? That communication I mentioned to the attorney-general, in a letter written by me to him not more than a fortnight or three weeks ago.

Then you looked upon it as an immaterial point of the conversation?As a most material one; and the reason that I did not make the communication sooner to the attorney-general was, that the attorney-general himself was acquainted with the fact, I believe, in one hour after it had been communicated to me. I have good reason to believe that the attorney-general had the information on paper from John M'Connell an hour afterwards. He was sent for to attend the castle, was there examined on oath, and the fact of the sheriff having said that he had an Orange panel in his pocket, for the trial of those traversers, was then sworn to by John M'Connell.

Mr. William Poole called in, and examined By Mr. J. Williams.-What is your situation in life?-I follow no profession or business at present; I occupy some land in the county of Dublin, which I hold to my advantage. I

have been a member of the corporation since 1802; I represent the corporation of brewers; they are composed of very respectable members.

You remember the time of the trial of the persons charged with committing a riot in the theatre?—I do, perfectly.

Do you remember about the time of the alleged riot and those trials, having any conversation with Mr. Sheriff Thorpe on the

subject of the jury?—I had a few words on the subject of a jury, but it was before the riot took place at the theatre; it was on the commission grand jury for the city of Dublin, where I have been in the habit of attending, and have been very high on the panel, and I spoke to sheriff Thorpe, en passant, one day in Sackville-street, saying, “I should wish to be on the next commission jury;" and he said, it should be so.

When was that ?-About the middle of November.

What pased between you and Mr. Sheriff Thorpe ?-I requested to be on the jury the next commission, and he said I should be so.

Did you see Mr. Sheriff Thorpe again, either before or shortly after the trials of the alleged rioters ?-I did not see sheriff Thorpe, to speak to him, on the subject of the grand jury, until after the jury were sworn, and then I saw him in the Sessions house and spoke to him.

What passed between you upon that occasion?-I spoke to sheriff Thorpe in remonstrance; I thought he had treated me ill, by not putting me on the jury; and he said he had a very hard card to play, and many parties to please. I told him that was no affair of mine, but that I felt he had left me off the jury for party purposes, and had broken his word, and that, as such, I felt he was not a proper person to fill that situation of sheriff.

What circumstances did you allude to ?-I alluded to his not placing me on the panel of the grand jury, and to the circumstance of the trial of the rioters.

To what did you allude when you used the word "promise ?"-To the conversation we had in Sackville-street, en passant.

What did Mr. Sheriff Thorpe say to that remonstrance ?-He said he had a very hard card to play; it was impossible he could please all parties.

You were understood to say something about leaving you out for party purposes?—Yes, I said that he had left me out of my place in the jury, for I had been in the habit of being very high on the jury, for party purposes; that he had broken his word for party purposes, and I felt that he had acted improperly.

What did you mean by leaving you out for party purposes?-What I meant was this, because I abided by the king's letter; and in the election for the brewers' corporation, the respectable part of that corporation, with my own exertions, put out a Mr. Sutter, who made himself very conspicuous in dressing the statue of king William, and in acting in collision with his majesty's government in opposing their measures.

Had that Mr. Sutter once belonged to the brewers' corporation with you?—He did.

Had you contributed to expel him, Sutter, from that corporation?—I certainly voted against him.

When you made those observations, did Mr. Sheriff Thorpe make any answer to you?-He said he had a very hard card to play; and

that, "conciliation-men" would not do for that jury; or words to that effect.

Was that after you had said, that you were omitted for party purposes ?-Yes.

Do you know whether Mr. Sheriff Thorpe is acquainted with that Mr. Sutter?-Intimately. Do you know of any cause for your being omitted from that panel, except what had passed with respect to Mr. Sutter in the brewers' company?—I do not.

Had you ever any difference with Mr. Sheriff Thorpe before your being omitted?-We never agreed in politics. We have not been connected, we have not mixed much together.

After this conversation upon the subject of your omission, did any thing further pass between you and Mr. Sheriff Thorpe ?-I do not think I saw sheriff Thorpe, until the quarter's assembly after; I was going down stairs, and sheriff Thorpe got hold of my hand; he said, "I hope every thing will be forgiven and forgotten, and we shall be friends:" I walked down and took no notice. Connected with this, I would mention, that he asked me to his civic dinner, and pressed me to go; I said, if I dined in town I would; but, at the same time, I had no intention of going, and so I dined in the country; there is another dinner follows a week after that, and I was invited to that, but I did not go.

Has there been any other quarterly assembly, since the one of which you have been speaking? There has been one last April.

Did you see Mr. Sheriff Thorpe at that quarterly meeting ?—I certainly did, in the


Did any thing pass between you and Mr. Sheriff Thorpe upon that occasion?-This Mr. Sutter is returned for the merchants; he got up to move a resolution for a committee to prepare a vote of censure and petition to this honourable House, condemning the measures of the attorney-general for Ireland; I opposed him, and moved an amendment; and I was seconded; but Mr. Sheriff Thorpe declared the measure to be carried, and refused putting my amendment.

By Col. Barry-What was your reason for asking to be on the grand jury?-One of the reasons was, that it was my right to be on it from my standing on the corporation; another reason was, there was a Mr. O'Meara, whom I had known for some years, he called upon me to say, that he saw my name on the panel and to request I would attend on the next jury; I said I had no objection; he began stating the case with respect to some affair that occurred between him and lord Rossmore, about seventeen years back; I interfered, and said, if I was one of the jury I would do every justice, but he must pardon me from hearing one word upon the subject till the witnesses came into the jury-box.

Did you apply to sheriff Cooper, to be on the jury?-I did.

What reason did you give to him?-Alderman Smith wished me to be on the jury, and

he expressed his surprise; he said, “Mr. Poole I regret that you are not to be on the panel; that speech you made at the brewers' corporation, that conciliation speech is the reason you are not to be on the jury; sheriff Thorpe will not put you on. I would recommend to you to go over to sheriff Cooper and speak to him on the subject."

What had Mr. O'Meara to do with the grand jury?-There were bills of indictment preferred against him, and he called upon me to request I would attend upon that panel. I met sheriff Thorpe and said, "I wish to be on this com mission jury." "You shall be on it,” he said, " certainly."

Was it before or after you applied to sheriff Cooper, that you had that conversation with O'Meara ?-Before; for I applied to sheriff Cooper not more than three days before the jury was struck.

Were you acquainted with the circumstances attending the accusation against Mr. O'Meara? I was not. I heard it was some transaction with reference to lord Rossmore, and nothing more I know of it.

By Sir G. Hill.-Do you consider sheriff Thorpe as a high party man, in Dublin?—I do. He is what is called a "Protestant ascendancy man."

By Sir J. Stewart.-You have said, that one of your objects for being on that grand jury was, that you considered it your right ?—Yes, from my standing in the corporation.

Was it a presenting grand jury?—It was not. It was a commission grand jury.

Is it usual for men in your high station in the corporation, to solicit to be on the commission grand jury?—It is generally the practice in the corporation, that any member of it who wishes to be on a particular jury, if they merely signify their intention to the sheriff, they are put on.

What answer did Mr. Sheriff Cooper give you when you applied to him? Sheriff Cooper said, that he felt that I ought to be on the jury; but, says he, "it is not my quarter, I have not the impanelling of the jury; but go up to sheriff Thorpe, he has the panel in his pocket; he is attending the recorder's court, and I dare say he will arrange it for you." I went out of the gate with that answer; but I never went to sheriff Thorpe; I felt indignant, and determined not to let myself down.

Will you attend to the statement which has been made to the committee respecting you, and state whether it is correct?-[An extract was read from the evidence of Mr. Sheriff Cooper, of yesterday.]

Is there any part of sheriff Cooper's testimony, which you have just heard read, which you object to in point of fact?-I think for the most part it is not founded on real fact; the only part that I conceive of that, that I know to be true, is that in which he says, he referred me to sheriff Thorpe at the Sessions house, who had the panel in his pocket; as to the rest I know nothing about it.

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