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had no objection to be examined, it might be another question; but if some should object to be examined, the committee would have to come to the question as to the propriety of compelling them. Now, he thought that would be objectionable; and therefore if the committee divided, he would give his vote for not putting the question, by which the matter would be

set at rest.

Mr. Brougham said, if the sheriff and his friends desired it, he saw no objection to the examination; but he did not think the examination of the grand jury at all necessary to the case of the sheriff.

Mr. Dawson said, if the grand jury sought to give an explanation of their conduct, the opportunity should not be denied them of answering charges so unequivocally made.

try, if the entire investigation was to close here.

Mr. Plunkett said, that the House had to come to a decision upon this abstract point-whether the House ought to compel a grand juror to answer? He had declared from the outset, that unless the proposed interrogatories were put and answered, gross injustice would be done to the sheriff, by suffering what was already on the minutes to remain there without giving him the opportunity of reply.

Mr. R. Smith proposed to move, "That, under all the circumstances of the case, it is not expedient to proceed with the inquiry with respect to any thing that passed before the grand jury.”

Colonel Barry was opposed to the expunging of any thing from the minutes. If any thing were expunged, the charge would have been published in all the newspapers, without the means of giving it an answer. He was willing to rest the case of the grand jury on what had already appeared, without pressing it further.

Mr. Tierney conceived that they must have all the evidence respecting the grand jury or none. Would it not be better to shape some middle course, and instruct the chairman to state to any grand juror who might come before the committee, that he must either be silent as to the conduct of the jury, or consent to be exa-jury, but as its conduct implicated or acmined touching all that occurred.

Mr. Keith Douglas said, that rather than have the proceedings conducted in this undecided manner, he would wish the whole inquiry to be put a stop to at once; and if any member felt disposed to second him, he would move that the chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again that day six months.

Sir J. Mackintosh did not see how the committee could possibly refuse to the grand jury an opportunity of defending themselves if they required it. As to the oath of secrecy, the grand jury by their joint petition with the sheriff, in which they complained of the charges made against them, and expressed their readiness to repair to London to aid any inquiry which the House might please to go into, distinctly waived the question of secrecy; because no examination could take place to exculpate them, but an examination of themselves. This petition either gave up any objection to be examined as to what passed in the jury room, or it was a dishonest attempt to deceive the House.

Sir G. Hill thought that the evidence already gone into respecting the grand jury was by no means necessary to the case of the sheriff. Indeed it was his opinion, that it would be greatly for the convenience of the House and the coun

Mr. Peel observed, that the committee had, in fact, nothing to do with the grand

quitted the sheriff. He saw no reason why it should not proceed with other parts of the inquiry, regarding which all were agreed, and postpone this question respecting the grand jury, until it was found necessary to decide it.

Mr. Brougham fully concurred in what had been said by the right hon. gentleman. The only practicable method was to postpone to the last moment the decision of the abstract question. It would thus be left open to the hon. colonel to call any grand juror he thought right to bring for ward. If he did not think it necessary to produce them, the question would not arise [Hear].

Colonel Barry added, that he should call some of the grand jurors, but not to any matters connected with what had passed before them when the bills were ignored.

Mr. John Davis called in; and examined

By Colonel Barry.-What is your situation in life?I have been educated in a respectable mercantile establishment; since that I have been much on the continent; I now re, side near Dublin, within a few miles of it.

Do you know a person of the name of Ad

dison Hone?—I do.

Is he supposed to be a man of what are called strong political feelings?-I certainly consider him a man coming under the deno

mination of possessing high political feelings. I shall be returned by both the sheriffs, as the law Do you recollect being present at any con- requires. We, &c. Thos. & Wm. Kemmis." versation between Addison Hone and sheriff Mr. William Carpenter called in; and Thorpe ?—I do.

State what that conversation was?-I recollect walking with Mr. Addison Hone, some few days, probably three or four, previous to the meeting of the January grand jury. I remember Mr. Hone, having met Mr. Sheriff Thorpe, addressing him; he informed him, that he understood Mr. Sheriff Thorpe had received a communication from the crown solicitor, relative to this panel. Mr. Sheriff Thorpe, without any reply, seemed to affirm that he had, without explaining the nature of that communication. Mr. Hone then observed, that it was not his intention to go on this jury, but that in consequence of that communication, as it was generally well known through the city of Dublin, he now declared his wish to occupy his place on that panel, and requested the sheriff to put him on it. The sheriff replied something synonymous to this, " that he was considered a party man in the city; that as there were some circumstances of a very particular nature would come before that jury, he was anxious to be free from any appearance of partiality, and under that impression he should not put him on;" I think he added, "that the same would not apply to Mr. Davis, and that he would be on the jury."

What did you conceive the sheriff meant by a party man?-I considered it applied in that sense to Mr. Hone; that he is a gentleman who has avowed his sentiments on the politics of the day; he is considered a high protestant ascendancy man. I believe there is an impression very generally prevailing, that he is an Orangeman; but I believe that he is not. By Mr. S. Rice.-Are you an Orangeman? -I am not.

Are you a member of the grand jury?-Of the January grand jury I was.

Do you know of a subscription that was made in Dublin, for the purpose of dressing the statue?—No, certainly not, at the time of the dressing of the statue.

You do not know any thing with regard to that subscription of your own knowledge?— Certainly not.

The right hon. William Plunkett made the following declaration in his place :

On communication with the law officers, I determined to have a letter addressed by Messrs. Kemmis to both the sheriffs, for the purpose of their joining in returning the panels and that letter, now shown to me, is the letter which was accordingly sent. [The letter was delivered in and read; and is as follows:] “Kildare-street, 24th Dec. 1822. Gentlemen;-In pursuance of a communication we have this day received from his majesty's attorney-general, we have the honour to inform you, that, in order to avoid any suspicion of partiality, on the approaching trials at the commission, it is expected that the panels


By Colonel Barry.-Do you know any per son of the name of William Poole ?-I do.

Did you hear any conversation between him and sheriff Thorpe, a few days before the commission?—I did; it was in the court-house, in Green-street. Mr. Poole came to sheriff Thorpe, and he told him that he was informed that he was not on the panel; and he said, that he was astonished, as Mr. Thorpe had promised him, about six weeks, or two months back, to put him on the jury. Mr. Thorpe told him, that he could not put him on the jury; that the panel had been made out by his brother sheriff and himself. Mr. Poole some time after, told him, that if he put him on the panel he would not interfere with the matter which occurred in the theatre.

Did he state any particular reason for wishing to be on the grand jury?-He mentioned that there was a bill of indictment against a Mr. T. O'Meara, for perjury. He said he would be able to explain the circumstance to the jury, if he was put upon the panel.

What reply did sheriff Thorpe make?—He told him that that very circumstance would prevent him from putting him on the panel. This was about two or three days prior to the jury being sworn for the commission. It took place in the Sessions house, in Green-street.

By Mr. S. Rice.-Do you recollect having made any declarations, with regard to the possibility of bills being sent up to a grand jury, respecting this play-house riot, before you served upon that grand jury?—No, I do not.

You never declared, that if such bills had been preferred to a grand jury, they ought to have been thrown out?-Never.

Did you belong to an Orange association at the time that you were sworn as a grand juror? I did.

By Mr. R. Smith.-Who was present, besides yourself, when Mr. Poole addressed this conversation to sheriff Thorpe ?—There was a vast number in the court, but not near us; I was sitting between sheriff Thorpe and Mr. Poole, in the sheriff's box with sheriff Thorpe. He spoke across you to sheriff Thorpe ?-Yes, he did.

Mr. Poole?-O, yes.
Had you any previous acquaintance with

Have you been in the habit of private inti macy or friendship with him?-Nothing more than meeting him in the assembly, and on a committee, and on grand juries.

Is he a man whom you reckon a warm man in polities?-I think so.

An Orangeman ?---No.

Is he what you call a conciliation-man ?—I believe so.

Have you and he been often on the same side at meetings of the common-council?—Not

on the same side.

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Have you often heard men talk in this way, to sheriffs, about being put on special juries, and making bargains what they would do, and what they would not?-I have heard men make the request.

Did you ever hear another man make a request to alderman Thorpe ?-Never.

To what sheriff have you heard requests made?—I think Mr. White; I made a request myself to get a gentleman on the jury. He was an Englishman, and had never been on a jury in Dublin, and he wished to get on the grand jury.

Did you ever mention this conversation, which Mr. Poole addressed to sheriff Thorpe, to any body else?—I cannot recollect.

Did Poole, soon after he had said this, go out of the box, and leave you two alone, or did you leave him with sheriff Thorpe ?-When he was leaving the box, he told sheriff Thorpe he had not treated him gentlemanly.

What did sheriff Thorpe say when Mr. Poole proposed to have nothing to do with this matter of the riot, if he would put him on ; did sheriff Thorpe make any reply?-He said he could not alter the panel, as it had been made out by his brother sheriff and himself.

After he was gone, had you any conversation with sheriff Thorpe about what had passed? -I had; I mentioned to Mr. Thorpe, he seemed to feel so anxious, "if you possibly could, it will be as well not to have any difference between you and Mr. Poole, if you could put him on the panel;" "the circumstance he has mentioned," said he, "would prevent my putting him on the panel.

By Mr. Hume.-Do you take an oath as an Orangeman ?-I do.

Have you any objection to state what that oath is ?—I really do not recollect it, but the principle of it is this; to support the king and constitution.

Is there any thing else but to support the king and constitution: do you recollect nothing more?—I do not recollect.-[The witness was directed to withdraw.]

Mr. Goulburn objected to the question.

Mr. Hume contended, that this was necessary to ascertain how far the witness was bound to secresy. After his declaration, that he did not recollect what he had sworn to, his testimony ought to be received with great caution.

Mr. Goulburn protested against the inference; of the hon. member. He should be glad to know, whether the hon.

member could repeat the oaths he had taken at the table of the House.

of the right hon. secretary extremely Lord Milton thought the observation weak, and beside the question. Did it follow, because hon. members might not be able to recite the oaths they had taken, that they did not know the tenor of them? He agreed with his hon. friend that this man's testimony ought to be received with great caution, after his declaration that

he did not recollect the oath he had taken. He believed it was well known that the

Orange oath contained something beyond the mere obligation to support the king and constitution.

Colonel Barry begged to state, in the first place, that he was no Orangeman. As to the terms of the oath, they were in print. The witness could have no motive to conceal what was known to almost every body. He hoped it would not be laid down, that because an individual had taken an oath as an Orangeman, he was therefore not to be believed,

[The witness was again called in.]

By Mr. Peel. Do you conceive that you took any oath or obligation of any kind, which prevents your telling this House the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? No.

By Sir J. Mackintosh.-Have you taken an oath of secrecy of any kind as a member of the Orange association?-No; I really do not consider the oath a secret one, for I have shown the oath.

Does the oath which you take as a member of the Orange association, bind you to keep any thing secret and what?-It does; there are signs among Orangemen which are kept


Does it bind you to conceal nothing but the signs by which Orangemen know each other? I believe not; I do not recollect any thing; I cannot speak positively.

By Mr. Jones.-How long have you be longed to an Orange lodge?-About three years.

You have been on habits of intimacy have you not with sheriff Thorpe ?-Sometimes.

Did sheriff Thorpe know you were an Orangeman?-He had no reason to know that I was


You did not keep it a secret that you were an Orangemanfrom yourfriends and acquaintances, did you?-I never made it very public, any thing more than in society.

Did you at the same time keep it secret ?— Tolerably so.

Did not your friends and acquaintances know you were an Orangeman, generally speaking ?-A great number of them did.

Amongst those friends and acquaintances, sheriff Thorpe was one?—Yes.

By Sir J. Mackintosh.-What is the number of the Orange lodge of which you are a member?-1640.

Does not the oath you have taken as an Orangeman bind you to be faithful and true to all Orangemen ?-It does, and it binds me as well to my brother Roman Catholics.

Does the oath contain words to this effect, "I swear to be faithful and true to all Orangemen ?"-I believe it does.

You have said that you also swore to be faithful and true to all your Roman Catholic brethren, are you sure the oath contains these words, "I swear to be faithful and true to all Roman Catholics," or words bearing that import? It is very near that I think.

You wish the committee to believe that the same words are applied to Orangemen and Roman Catholics in the oath you have taken ? -No, I do not think they are exactly the same words.

Are they words of the same meaning?— No.

Do not you recollect that you just now said that they were very nearly the same?-It is really so long since I have taken the obligation that I do not recollect the words.

You have used the words, "my Roman Catholic brethren," will you say that the oath contains the words, "Roman Catholic brethren?"-The word "Roman Catholic" is in the obligation.

ary?-There was one to my own knowledge: [142 a Mr. Cussack.

Do you know whether Joseph Lamprey was an Orangeman ?—I have heard so I believe he was.

your knowledge?—I have no reason to believe
Is Mr. George Holmes an Orangeman to
him so.

Orangeman ?—I do not know.
Do you know whether Mr. John Foster is an

Or a Protestant ascendancy man? - He would certainly drink that.

he is an Orangeman or not?—I do not know.
Mr. John Stephens, do you know whether
would drink the toast.
Is he a Protestant ascendancy man?—He

Is Mr. Joseph Moore a Protestant ascendancy man?-He is.

Is he an Orangeman?-Not to my know-

Is Mr. Perrin an Orangeman?--I do not know.

Is he a Protestant ascendancy man?—Yes. Is Mr. John Davis a Protestant ascendancy man? Yes.

And Mr. Andrew Woods?—Yes.

are aware that there is any thing in the oath By Sir G. Hill.-Will you state whether you published over and over again?-It has fretaken by an Orangeman, that has not been quently been.

your knowledge, taken by an Orangeman, that Has there been any thing in any oath to has heen withheld from publication repeatedly?

Will you state that the word "Roman Ca--No. tholic," has in the oath any friendly application to the Roman Catholics, in the same way as when it is applied to Orangemen ?-Not in the same way, but it is in a friendly way in the oath.

Does the oath contain any thing else about Roman Catholics?—I do not recollect.

Does the oath not contain an express declaration, that the person taking it is not, and never was, a Roman Catholic?-It does.

Are Roman Catholics once mentioned or twice mentioned in the oath ?-I do not recollect.

How came you to tell the committee that the oath bound you to be faithful and true to your Roman Catholic brethren as well as to the Orangemen ?—I stated the matter to the best of my recollection.

Your recollection at that period was different from your recollection at the present was it?-It must be.

You recollected five minutes ago that you had sworn to bear friendship towards Roman Catholics, and now you recollect only to have sworn to disavow and disclaim being a Roman Catholic, how do you reconcile both those statements?-In admitting members into the lodge, they must swear that they never were Roman Catholics; that is what I alluded to. Do you know how many Orangemen were among the fourteen common-council-men, who served on the commission grand jury last Janu

By Mr. Hume.-Are any contributions of payments made?-Nothing more to my knowmoney collected in your lodge, or any quarterly ledge than what pays for the expense of the night, what is drank.

By Mr. R. Smith.-Do you think that any [a laugh!]-No; I do not, indeed. saving could be effected in those expenses?

By sir J. Newport.-You were present at drank, did he make a speech ?-He did. sheriff Thorpe's dinner when his health was

Did sheriff Thorpe in that speech pledge his shrievalty?-To the best of my recollechimself to pursue any line of conduct during tion he did; the only part that I recollect was, that he pledged himself to give the glorious memory.

pledged himself during his shrievalty to act up
Do you recollect whether Mr. Sheriff Thorpe
to the opinions of those who had made him
sheriff? I believe he did.

those who had made him sheriff?-The Com-
Whom do you consider that he meant by
mons; what is commonly called the glorious
memory men,

Poole had with sheriff Thorpe, he said he would
You stated that in the conversation that Mr.
not interfere if he put him on the jury: what
did you mean by that expression? What he
meant by that was, there were bills of indict-
theatre, and that was what Mr. Poole alluded
ment against those persons for rioting in the

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Do you meet by summons ?-Yes.

What are the toasts given?" The King" is generally the first toast; and then "The duke of York" and "The duke of Clarence and the Navy."

And the usual toast of "King William ?” Yes.

You drink the usual toast, "The glorious memory?"-Yes.

Did not you state that Mr. William Poole was a conciliation-man?—Yes.

Do you know what induced Poole to say he would take no part against the rioters, on the inquisition, provided he was left on the panel? -Yes; he mentioned the reason, that there was a bill of indictment against Mr. O'Meara.

Do you know what induced Poole, a conciliation-man, to hold out an offer to sheriff Thorpe, that if he was left on the panel, he would give no vote as to the rioters at the theatre-The only reason which I know is, that Mr. Poole has differed with the majority a good deal, in the Commons; and that perhaps Mr. Thorpe might think that if he was on the jury, there would be a difference.

Did sheriff Thorpe, when this offer was made by Poole, of not interfering with the rioters at the theatre, express any surprise or indignation ? He did; for he told him that would be the very means of preventing him from putting him on the panel.

of the evil tendency of these acts as they affected the workmen, the hon. member stated, that the population employed in this manufacture had of late years decreased. In no part of this manufacture were these laws of any use; and there were many in which they were highly detrimental. The fabric was so fettered and regulated by the statute, that fancy silk goods, in imitation of the French, could not be made in London. As a proof, however, that the trade, which had decreased in London, where alone those laws were in operation, had flourished in other parts of the country, it might be mentioned, that the value of raw silk annually imported, which, 50 years ago had not exceeded 120,000l. was now upwards of 2,000,000l.

The following is a copy of the petition :

"To the honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in parliament assembled.

"The humble petition of the undersigned silk-manufacturers, residing within the city of London, the county of Middlesex, the city and liberty of Westminster, and the liberty of the Tower of London:

"Sheweth-That your petitioners are extensively engaged in the manufacture of silk, within the city of London, the county of Middlesex, the city and liberty of Westminster, and the liberty of the Tower of London, and which manufacture is, in the opinion and judgment of your petitioners, at present so circumstanced, as to require the attention of your honourable House :

"That the silk manufacture of this

The House resumed. The chairman reposted progress, and obtained leave to sit kingdom, from an inconsiderable beginagain.

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ning, has gradually attained to great importance in a national point of view, supplying to the state a large revenue-supporting a numerous and industrious popu lation-and affording the means of an extensive and beneficial investment of capital. In the earlier periods of this trade, it had to contend, under the greatest disadvantages, with the rival and favourite manufacture of France. The proximity of the latter country to Italy, her domestic growth of the raw material, and the possession of machinery far surpassing, in its application to silk, any hitherto employed in this country, gave to France, for a long series of years, such predo

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