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-than that it should remain in the hands of a lord lieutenant, the expediency of the duration of whose office was thus to be made a matter of doubt. He thought he had said enough to show the House, that, in the present circumstances of Ireland, nothing could have a more mischievous effect upon the country at large than disturbing the local government.

removed. The object of appointing a committee was only to lay before the House, in the best manner possible, information upon a subject which involved the best interests of Ireland. No offence could be meant to the lord lieutenant by any measure adopted by that House, in which, if it were polled, his the noble marquis's friends would be found to form a large majority. He thought the public was much indebted to his hon. friend, for having brought this subject before the attention of parliament; and he believed that the measure, whatever might be its fate now, must, eventually, be adopted.

Mr. Abercromby thought, that as the proposition before the House was, whether an inquiry should be made into the best mode of governing Ireland, and as there was quite enough of suspicion about the present government to justify such an inquiry, the subject deserved, at Sir J. Newport said, he thought noleast, a fair and impartial consideration thing could be more injurious to the by parliament. He thought his hon. interests of Ireland, or more irritating to friend (Mr. Hume) had been unfairly the feelings of the people, than the prodealt with. He had mentioned the sub-posal before the House. For his part, if ject of expense, but only as a minor part he were in the situation of the lord lieuof the case, and not that point upon tenant, and a committee were appointed which it was mainly to rely. It should to inquire into the necessity of. the existnot be said, that this question was brought ence of his office, he should not feel warforward upon grounds of economy, and ranted in holding it one hour longer. not upon the broad grounds of wisdom But he spoke only from his feelings; and and policy. He was willing to admit different people had different feelings. that, upon abstract principles, Ireland When gentlemen talked of the danger to was entitled to a local government; but, which Ireland was exposed, and reasoned the question to be decided was, whether from that in favour of the resolution, he the experience of late years, and the would refer them to a period of danger change of circumstances, had not now during a very wise administration-that rendered the alteration which was pro- of queen Elizabeth; and remind them posed expedient. He would admit, too, how different a policy was then adopted. that it was fit the person intrusted with When revolt and rebellion disturbed Irethe government of Ireland should be land, that queen did not remove the lord possessed of local information; but this deputy, but sent Lords President to the argument was not conclusive. The ad- disturbed provinces, to aid in restoring vantage of having the minister for Ire- them to tranquillity; she caused the seat Jand identified with the cabinet of Eng- of government to approximate as nearly land, and being ready to answer in his as possible to the disorders, and where place in parliament any question that mischief was, thither she sent the remedy. might arise, was obvious, and would He had spent a long life, and during a afford a better chance of security to the large portion of that life had assisted in people of Ireland, by the scrutiny which the discussions of parliament; in the the subject would then undergo. How course of nature, he should probably soon the proposition was to be carried into take his departure, but he was glad to execution, would be a matter of detail have that opportunity of stating his firm which must be afterwards considered. conviction, the result of his experience, He had hoped to have heard from the that there could be no measure by which right hon. gentleman, who, in his double the feelings of the people of Ireland capacity of minister for England and for would be more likely to be exasperated Ireland, was well qualified to afford in- than by the removal of the seat of governformation upon this topic, some better ment. They would look upon it as the reasons than those which he had advanced last scene of their degradation. They against the resolution; but, with the ex- would think that the expectations which ception of this single objection respect had been held out to them at the Union ing the administration of justice in crimi- were all destroyed. The evils of nonnal cases, his doubts had been confirmed, residence would be increased; the nobiand even that might, he thought, be lity, many of whom he could name if it

were necessary, and who remained in | that country at present, would quit it as soon as the court should be removed. He had never felt a more decided conviction that he was doing his duty, than he did in giving a negative to the motion.

Mr. Secretary Canning said, that the opinion which he had formed upon this subject before the debate had commenced was fortified beyond all measure, by what he had since heard. Although the testimony was conflicting upon the subject, the conclusion from general principles was so obvious, that he thought it could not be mistaken. Let the House suppose that a few years had passed since this measure of removing the government from Ireland had been adopted. The Secretary of State would, of necessity, be ignorant of all those local peculiarities which, under the present system, were so accurately detailed. He could not conceive any thing more extraordinary than that the House should consent to strike away all those advantages which were derived from the presence of ministers who had served an apprenticeship to the Irish government. But, the motion before the House afforded in itself the best proof of the value of local information: for it was proposed to send a commission to Ireland to collect that local information before the House should decide. It was not ventured even to lay the foundation for that absent form of government which was to be recommended, until such information should be obtained. If this, then, were to go on, commissions must of necessity be appointed as often as it was necessary to procure information; and, instead of collecting it without shock or confusion, the House must send commissions, each with power equal to that of a lord lieutenant, to collect and bring home particulars, which they were certain must be procured during a perturbed state of the public mind. That information was best gathered and laid by for future use during the ordinary current of events; and not by fits and snatches, as often as separate events required separate inquiries. But, the chief objection to the measure was, that its effect would inevitably be, that, if the executive government were removed, the practical power would be thrown into the hands of parties. Two generations of English ministries, how ever short, would not have passed, before the person holding the office of Secretary of State would find himself obliged to

pin his faith upon some individual or some connexion in Ireland; and all those evil consequences must ensue, to correct which the power of England had been exerted. The table of the House would be covered with petitions, complaining that, owing to the distance of the executive government, no minister, however well-intentioned, could possess sufficient information for the due administration of justice. He could not lay out of the question, that, in the present temper and condition of Ireland, the loss of the sum of 100,000l. a year, and all that grew out of the expenditure of the court, would be a considerable evil to the people of that country, whether the chasm which it would make in their commerce, or the effect it might have upon their feelings, were regarded. He could not but think, that this would be breaking the last link which bound the two countries together, and adding to sore feelings and distress, at a moment when those feelings were sufficiently irritated and that distress sufficiently severe. On these grounds, he not only decided against any change in the government of Ireland, but against any inquiry which should seem to imply that parliament meditated such a change-a measure than which he thought nothing could be, in the present state of that country, more mischievous.

Mr. Dawson contended, that the proposition was one of the most impolitic and injurious that could possibly be broached.

Mr. R.Martin, as he had a large share in bringing about the Union, wished to observe, that at that time it was positively understood, that a permanent lord lieutenant should be always residing in Ireland. Adverting to the thin attendance of members, he expressed his surprise, that after the pompous advertisement which the hon. member for Aberdeen had posted up of his intention to make the present motion he should have so poor a benefit. He would rather vote at once to supersede the lord lieutenant than vote for the commission. It appeared to him to be very little short of a revolutionary proposition.

Mr. Hutchinson regretted that he could not concur in the motion of his hon. friend. He was convinced that great mischief would be occasioned if, at this moment, there appeared any disposition on the part of parliament to remove the marquis Wellesley from the government of Ireland; and, if the proposition now before the

House were carried, he had no doubt that it would give rise to an idea that parliament did entertain such a feeling. If it were to go abroad that government did not intend to support the course of policy marked out by that noble person, very unfortunate consequences would inevitably be the result. Although some circumstances had occurred in the course of the noble marquis's administration which were calculated to produce feelings of pain, still he thought it was wise and proper to support him until his system of policy was clearly and plainly developed. He should, therefore, give the motion a negative, lest the motives of the House should be misconceived if they came to an opposite conclusion. It might be right to appoint such a commission as his hon. friend moved for; but the present, in his opinion, was not a proper moment for such a proceeding. When his hon. friend spoke of the enormous expense incurred by the military force, and by the number of barracks in Ireland, what answer did he (Mr. Hutchinson), as an Irishman, give to him? It was by retorting on his hon. friend, and on the British nation, that abominable system of misgovernment which had been pursued for centuries by this country towards Ireland-a system which had converted Ireland into one great barrack. It was true, there had been, and there was, a profuse expenditure alike injurious to Ireland and disgraceful to this country; but the government of England was to blame for it. He felt most deeply the miseries under which Ireland now suffered: and, if his voice could reach that country, he would exhort every portion of his countrymen to bear their fate with patience, and not to let feelings of anger hurry them to a breach of the laws, which would only add to their miseries,

Sir George Hill said, that officially connected with Ireland as he had the honour to be, it might be expected that he should express an opinion on the present important proposition; the House would therefore, perhaps, indulge him with their attention for a very few minutes. He did not intend to enter into any abstract reasoning on the necessity of having a lord lieutenant of Ireland, nor to attempt to prove that under all circumstances and at all times, that country should have a lord lieutenancy established there: but he wished to express his conviction that situated as that country was at present, an

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executive authority resident was indispensable for its peace and security; distracted by party as it had been stated to be, the constant daily vigilant attention of an impartial vigorous mind was essential to its tranquillity. These qualifications were eminently possessed by lord Wellesley, and he had had his (sir G. Hill's)/ co-operation, as a private gentleman connected with Ireland (exclusive of his official allegiance to him), to keep down the manifestations of party spirit, by the best' exertion of his influence. To this end, the lord lieutenant had duties to perform, which could not be effectively exercised by any secretary of state resident in London; but he had likewise, at that particular moment, to watch with unceasing diligence, the projects and moveinents of a regenerated Roman Catholic parliament, assembled for purposes the most alarming, bearding his authority; and which might yet call for a prompt exercise of it, that no secretary residing in this country could, at the critical moment required, put into execution. Whilst some gentlemen argued, that the marquis Wellesley's government was valuable to restrain what they termed "the faction," (and he was sure his power would and ought to be directed against whatever might be factious) he felt confident, it would not pass by the proceedings of an assemblage of agitators who threatened the country with the worst calamity which could befal itmen who were so litte awed or restrained by an executive government on the spot, at their very door; a government capable of commanding and bringing into operation, at a moment's warning, all the civil and military powers of the country, what dangers might not be apprehended from these men, if they saw they were only to be dealt with by a secretary from his office in Whitehall? This brief review of the present state of Ireland, and particularly of its metropolis, induced him, without further reasoning or argument, to pronounce that the lord lieutenancy of Ireland could not at that time be with safety abolished.

Mr. Hume shortly replied. He said, that in submitting this proposition to the House he had no idea of reflecting on the government of the marquis Wellesley: and if gentlemen pleased, he was willing to add to his motion, that it was not meant in any degree to refer to that noble person. The chief Secretary for Ireland and the right hon. Secretary for the home

department, had not, in any way, answered his observations. They had contended against arguments conjured up by themselves; but which he (Mr. H,) had never even thought of. The saving of 130,000/. a-year, which would be effected if his motion were adopted, was nothing if compared with the extent of benefit which would be secured in other respects. He did not propose that the change should take place now. That was an error into which the gentlemen opposite had most unaccountably fallen. He was willing, if it would please the House better, to leave out the words, "a commission to inquire," and to substitute "take into its consideration."

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the gallery was nearly cleared for a division, when Mr. Hume expressed his intention not to divide, observing, that probably a similar motion would, ere long, emanate from the other side of the House. The motion was then negatived without a division. 3chne

EDUCATION OF THE POOR IN IRELAND,] Sir J. Newport rose to submit the motion, of which he had given notice, relative to the accounts of diocesan and parish schools in Ireland, and the reports of the commissioners of education there, with the view of more detailed inquiry at the commencement of the ensuing session, into the means of imparting most efficaciously to the whole body of the people, without religious distinction, its essential benefits, and rendering the funds available, which were destined for that great national object. His object, he observed, was to pledge parliament that they would, at an early period next year, enter into a full investigation of this interesting question, in order that they might deliberately consider what had been done for the general education of the people of Ireland. Parliament ought to exercise its inquisitorial power, and to see that funds which were left for the education of the people, without regard to difference of religion were applied, through the proper channels, to that most important purpose. He had, at the commencement of the session, moved for various papers, which threw great light on this subject. However gentlemen might differ on other points, he believed they all agreed on this-that general education was the most certain mode by which the situation of Ireland could be ameli

orated. Many years ago, education was looked upon as the only effectual cure for the evils by which Ireland was borne down. In 1787, the subject was deeply considered, and a plan of general education was about to be set on foot; but the death of the duke of Rutland prevented the project from being carried into effect. In March 1788, a bill was brought in, appointing commissioners to inquire into the disposition of all revenues which had been intended for charitable institutions. The commissioners discovered that, in the province of Ulster, the public grants which were voted for the support of the Protestant free schools had been diverted from that object. The commissioners under that act of parliament, which was continued by a subsequent act down to June, 1796, detected numerous abuses of the grossest nature. They found that, in many instances, the money which should have been devoted to the education of the people, had made its way into the pockets of private individuals. In 1796, it being discovered that persons of weight and consideration had participated in these abuses, the act was suffered to expire, and no report was made to parliament. In 1806, a magistrate's book, containing a statement of the conduct of those who had abused certain charities, happened to fall into his (sir J. N's) hands, which he immediately communicated to the lord lieutenant, the duke of Bedford, and also to an old friend of his, who was then in office. With their assent and approbation, he subsequently brought forward a motion for the appointment of commissioners of education, who were nominated under the act of the 46th of the late king. A number of most useful reports emanated from those commissioners. In consequence of their representations, beneficial measures were adopted, with respect both to royal and private scholastic foundations, and they afterwards entered on the subject of parochial schools. These schools were ordered to be founded in the time of Henry 8th, immediately after the Reformation. It was then enacted, that every parochial clergyman, on entering on his benefice, should contract a solemn engagement to keep, or cause to be kept, a school for teaching the English language. Annexed to these schools were to be various lands, the profits of which were to be applied to the extension of the benefits of education to the people in general. At a very early

period, the anxiety of the people for those benefits was remarkable. Generally speaking, the legislature was too much in a hurry, however, to reap the fruits before the soil had been properly cultured; and he could not help expressing his wish, that before any particular tenets were endeavoured to be taught the poor, their minds should be first properly prepared to receive and understand them. The right hon. baronet then alluded to the establishment of diocesan schools in Ireland, as projected by a statute passed the 10th of July 1813, in conformity with the report of some commissioners who had been appointed to inquire into all matters connected with this subject. To prove how necessary inquiry into the matter was, he would refer the House to the returns of diocesan schools lately laid before them. From the dioceses of Killaloe, Meath, and others, and the archbishoprics of Armagh and Tuam, no return at all had been forwarded. These returns, however, were in fact, almost entirely unintelligible. In the archbishoprick of Tuam, where there were twenty-four benefices, only six had schools; and of these, three were entirely supported by the clergy. In the diocese of Cloyne, fifty-eight benefices were returned; and of these, only twenty had schools. In an account lately published, it appeared that the value of the benefices in the diocese of Cloyne was 40,000l. a-year; and this was confirmed by the statement of Mr. Bates, in the first volume of his parochial survey. In the diocese of Elphin there was a considerable number of diocesan schools; but those were maintained by the London Hibernian Society. There was one case, however, in which a Protestant school had been kept up in a manner so disinterested and honourable, that the House would willingly pardon him, if he mentioned one or two particulars. In the parish of Archol, in the diocese of Ferns, a return had been made, highly creditable to the clergyman of the place, Mr. Mahon, who had built one of two school-houses at his sole and entire expense. The right hon. baronet concluded by stating, that he thought the only proper system of education to be pursued there, was one which, by the exclusion of any set formula or catechism, should induce the children of Roman Catholic and of Protestant parents, indifferently, to participate in the advantages of religious instruction. The bible might there be put into the hands of

children with such a commentary as he had lately seen; going solely to elucidate particular passages requiring explanation, but which were explained without any view to the establishment of this or that particular dogma or tenet. His object was, to extend to Ireland, in the best and most useful way, a system of general education for the people. He should therefore take the liberty of moving, "That this House, deeply impressed with the serious responsibility imposed on parliament of promoting, by every possible means, the general instruction of the people, will, at the commencement of the ensuing session, enter upon a detailed and accurate inquiry into the state of education in Ireland, and into the means of extending its essential blessings to the whole body of the community, without religious distinction, as well as of rendering those funds available which are or may be destined to this great object by public or private munificence, or secured to it by statutory or other provision, subject to no other restriction or limitation than such as the will of the donors, or the wisdom of parliament, may specially direct."

Mr. Goulburn thought it was an inexpedient thing in general, and particularly in the present case, for parliament to enter into pledges in one session, as to what it would do in another. He objected also to this species of parliamentary interference with the management of the parochial establishments. As little could he concur in the proposition of educating Roman Catholic and Protestant children


one and the same system, without making them sensible, as suggested by the right hon. baronet, of the distinctions between their respective creeds. But, while he was opposed to the motion, he was friendly to inquiry next session.

Mr. S. Rice contended, that inquirywas clearly called for, and expressed his satisfaction at the promise of the right hon. gentleman, to give every information on these topics in his power.

Sir J. Newport said, he willingly withdrew his resolution; his object, which was to ascertain the disposition of the right hon. gentleman upon the subject, being completely obtained.

The motion was withdrawn.

LARCENIES (BENEFIT OF CLERGY) BILL.] On the third reading of this bill,

Sir J. Mackintosh rose to propose an amendment. He observed, that he had

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