former occasion understood that it was the intention of the Government to proceed with it. The Government believed there would yet be time to get the Bill read a second time, and referred to a Select Committee. MR. W. H. SMITH said, in that case he wished to give Notice to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill that it could not go to a second reading without very considerable discussion. Second Reading deferred till Monday next. BLIND AND DEAF MUTE CHILDREN (Mr. Woodall, Mr. Benjamin T. Williams, Mr. Montagu Scott.) COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) the imposition of a Stamp Duty on Copies of Resolved, That it is expedient to authorize Court Roll, of the same amount as that at present imposed on Deeds of Enfranchisement, which may become payable under the provisions Copyhold Acts, and to promote the gradual Enof any Act of the present Session to amend the franchisement of Lands of Copyhold and Customary Tenure. Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock. LUNACY LAW AMENDMENT [SALARIES]. Considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock. Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of the Salary of the Chairman of the Board of Commissioners in Lunacy, which may become payable under the provisions of any Act of the present Session to amend the Laws reMR. WOODALL said, he did not pro-lating to the custody and treatment of Lunatics. pose to ask the House to proceed further with this measure. He found that of the clock. pauper and quasi-pauper children were sufficiently provided for by existing legislation. There remained, however, the strong claim of these afflicted children generally to a participation in the education grants. In all other civilized countries a generous provision was made for their training by the State, and he trusted that at some future and not distant period their case would receive the attention of the House. He begged to move that the Order be discharged. Motion agreed to. Order discharged; Bill withdrawn. COPYHOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT [STAMP DUTY].—RESOLUTION. MR. PELL said, he had viewed the Bill on this subject with considerable suspicion; but he believed that the Amendments placed on the Paper by the hon. Member who introduced it (Mr. Waugh) would make it unobjec tionable. EARL PERCY said, the statement of the hon. Member must not be regarded as the view taken by hon. Members on that side of the House. LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH explained that, while not committing themselves to the details of the Bill, the Government wished to have the matter fairly discussed, and to that end the HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, 17th June, 1881. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-Second Reading- Committee-Inclosure Provisional Order (Thur- Provisional Order* (93). Report-Local Government Provisional Order (Birmingham) * (94). Third Reading-Land Drainage Provisional Orders (104), and passed. LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) LORD WAVENEY, in moving to re "That in the opinion of this House in all calculations affecting the interests of landlord and Will. IV. chap. 84. should be adopted as the basis of adjustment," tenant the Townland Valuation 6th and 7th | now be carried out in all its integrity. He held in his hand a copy of the original valuation, which he obtained in 1840 from the publishers of the original survey, Messrs. Hodges and Smith, which was made from Government records, and which gave instructions how to ascertain the value of a farm for letting purposes. The book was published many years ago, when the prices of produce all over Ireland were much lower than in recent years. Of course, it was perfectly intelligible that values should alter; but there was no difficulty in adjusting the value of produce at the present time, as compared with the value of produce at the time of which he spoke. The later valuation was intended to guide the authorities as to what the rate of taxation should be; but though it was for that single object, the earlier one showed what the land was worth. Great changes had certainly taken place; but, without going minutely into the matter, he might say that prices had risen very largely. Indeed, so far as his own knowledge went, the valuation of 1862 was 25 per cent less than the letting value of great estates, and that 25 per cent, added to the former valuation, brought the amount up to the fair letting value of the present day. Indeed, it was a singular testimony to the accuracy of Sir Richard Griffith's estimates that, on nearly all the largest and best managed estates in the country, the rents were at this day only 25 per cent above the 1833 valuation. He had heard that a new valuation was desirable; but it was said that it was almost impracticable to carry it out. He (Lord Waveney), however, might say that there would not be so much trouble in making it as was generally supposed, because, on application being made to a distinguished surveyor and valuer of land, he stated that such a valuation could be completed in three years. He maintained that no revaluation was now required. If it were attempted there would be a great suspense in the settlement of questions affecting the land. Besides, under the present system, they had, in the valuation of 1833, a complete valuation of Ireland in existence, which was useful for all practical requirements, and which would save the expense, trouble, and delay of a new valuation. He could say of his own knowledge that farms and estates had been re-valued upon the basis of said, he would not have ventured to have brought the matter before the House had he not thought it would have been of interest to noble Lords connected with property in Ireland, and that the settlement of it would be of the highest importance to the safe working of the Bill which was now occupying the attention of the other House of Parliament. The system of valuation of land in Ireland was founded upon that of Sir Richard Griffith, which was made not for the purposes of rent, but for the purposes of taxation. His point was that especially in the introduction of any new principle of adjustment of rent as between landlord and tenant in Ireland it would be essential, indeed absolutely indispensable, that the standard by which those arrangements were to be regulated should be founded upon scientific and indisputable bases. It would not be well that a general valuation should be governed here and there solely and exclusively by the particular customs existing in any county or province of Ireland; but local circumstances in other respects would be matters for consideration in making this fair adjustment. There should be a rule in valuing which could be followed with almost mathematical accuracy; but such a standard could not be obtained by Griffith's valuation of 1862. Sir Richard Griffith's system of valuation was commenced in 1833-4; and he (Lord Waveney) contended it showed what the value of every portion of the land of Ireland really was. It was adopted as the result of much consideration and very minute inquiry by him; but there was another valuation, that of 1862, to which he had referred, which was carried out in a different way. The object of the valuation of 1833 was, in the original instance, to ascertain what the real valuation of the land was with respect to the productive qualities of the soil, and to surrounding circumstances such as the existence of convenient market roads, &c. The quality of the land in that valuation in the different Provinces of the country was clearly and scientifically investigated, and to those soils a certain value was assigned. That valuation having been made for that specific purpose, it should Lord Waveney the present system, and that such valuation had been accepted by both landlords and tenants. The question which would come before them for consideration of what was a fair rental would tax the powers of Parliament to the utmost. The origin of the right of the tenants of Ulster was based upon the peculiar circumstances of that Province; and those circumstances were entirely, completely, and absolutely different to all other parts of Ireland. The chief of those circumstances was that most of the Province of Ulster was occupied by the descendants of Scotchmen and Englishmen, and that the landlords and tenants were of one type, and had worked together on good terms. In that Province there were two values; the one belonged to the landlord, and the other to the tenants. Take the value of land to be 168. an acre, a tenant would give £14 an acre in the open market for tenant right, and that at 5 per cent equalled 30s. an acre rental. In many parts of Ireland, landlords had made large improvements both as regarded the land and in building cottages, and they should derive some benefit from them; but, in all future arrangements, there should be a fixed standard to work by. That being so, the value of land would be ascertained by the officials of the tribunal before whom any question of the kind came. In connection with the subject, he had taken the opinion of Irish farmers on the point, and it was that, without some other industry, a farmer in Ireland could not live and support his family on fewer than 20 or 25 acres of land. He believed that by making a declaration beforehand in the terms of his Motion, they would very much facilitate the operation of legislation both in the Lower House and in this House. These were the reasons which had induced him to press the question again upon the House; and he thought it would be well in the spirit of wise statesmanship to depart from the fixed rules which were so dear to them. Griffith's valuation of 1862 did not meet the exigencies of the case, and he argued that it was desirable to proceed on the principles which had governed the valuation of 1833. It had been said that England could not govern Ireland; but that he denied, for she could do so, if, passing from her own special habits, she practised the great English qualities of justice and fair play, and did not attempt to govern in direct opposition to the genius of the people. He was of opinion that, though there were enormous difficulties in the way, Ireland could be made prosperous by justice and a consideration for the peculiar circumstances of that country. Ireland could not be governed on the strict rules which were found applicable to this country. He believed that legislation, such as they were then attempting, to improve the condition of the Irish tenants generally, and a general system of emigration, would bring about a great improvement in that country and a happier state of things than that which now existed. The noble Lord concluded by moving his Resolution. Mored to resolve, That in the opinion of this House in all calculations affecting the interests of landlord and tenant the Townland Valuation 6th and 7th Will. IV. chap. 84. should be adopted as the basis of adjustment.-(The Lord Waveney). VISCOUNT LIFFORD said, he cordially agreed with the noble Lord opposite (Lord Waveney) in the first part of his speech, in which he had acknowledged the great and important services which were rendered to Ireland by Sir Richard Griffith in the matter of this valuation. He had the honour of being acquainted with him, and he assured him (Viscount Lifford) personally that he had been over every townland in Ireland before making his valuation. He had also stated that his valuation was for assessment purposes, and not for the purposes of rent; consequently, his view was precisely the reverse of that of the noble Lord as to the basis of value for rent. On that account, 25 per cent had been considered as a fair addition, though it was now called rack rent; and he understood his noble Friend also to propose that an addition of 25 per cent to Griftith's valuation should be taken as a standard. He (Viscount Lifford) had strong objections to the statement. In the first place, the prices of agricultural produce had doubled since that valuation was made. In the next place, by the construction of railways, wherever they had been made the value of land had much increased. He did not think that they should adopt the standard which was suggested by the noble Lord for the valuation of land in Ireland. LORD CARLINGFORD said, he would not now discuss the customs of Ulster holding, and endeavour to arrive at an LORD WAVENEY said, that, after the Motion (by leave of the House) with- IRELAND-EJECTMENTS FOR NON- MOTION FOR A RETURN. THE EARL OF LIMERICK, in moving "For a Return showing the total number of cases of ejectment for non-payment of rent in Ireland since the Land Act, 1870, came into operation, in which claims for disturbance on account of the rent being an exorbitant rent have been made, with the amount claimed in each such case, and the amount, if any, awarded by the court," and tenant right; and perhaps he might | enacted by Parliament, it would have to said, that under the existing law, if the HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, 17th June, 1881. MINUTES.]—PUBLIC BILLS-Select Committee elapsed, and as that had been a year of considerable excitement, it was possible that some cases had been brought before the Court during that period; and he was quite sure that if there had been any such cases to be found, there would have been no hesitation on the part of the tenants, or of those who advised them, in bringing them before the Court in the way prescribed by the Land Act of 1870. If cases had not been so brought before the Courts, there was prima facie ground for believing that the charges made were groundless. He trusted the Government would consent to produce the Return asked for, in order that the House might see whether there had been any such cases. thought they could have no possible objection to accede to the Motion, the effect of which would be to bring their information on the subject down to the present date. He Mored for, Return showing the total number of cases of ejectment for non-payment of rent in Ireland since the Land Act, 1870, came into operation, in which claims for disturbance on account of the rent being an exorbitant rent have been made, with the amount claimed in each such case, and the amount (if any) awarded by the court.-(The Earl of Limerick.) Report-Local Government Provisional Orders Third Reading-Consolidated Fund (No. 3)*, SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS- MR. NEWDEGATE asked the honourable Baronet the member for Carlisle, When he intends to ask the leave of the House to introduce a Bill for the tions adopted by the House upon the purpose of giving effect to the ResoluMotion proposed by him on Tuesday last? SIR WILFRID LAWSON: Sir, in LORD CARLINGFORD, in reply, said, he thought that the Return might be given without delay, and there was, of course, no objection to its being produced. He believed it would be found reply to my hon. Friend, I beg to say I to show a very small number of the am very much afraid that he has not cases referred to; but with regard to the point of claims for disturbance in addressed to hon. Members the day beseen the Circular which I issued and cases of what was called exorbitant rent, fore the discussion took place on the he must say that the matter had been Local Option Resolution. Had he rebrought by several of the County Court ceived it, he would have understood all Judges before both of the Commissions about it, for he would have seen that that had lately inquired into the Land the Motion was a simple confirmation of Question; and these gentlemen had said the Resolution adopted last year, and that if a more moderate word had been used, say "unreasonable," instead of of the Government in dealing with this was designed to strengthen the hands "exorbitant," they were quite clear that urgent question at the earliest pracin many cases they would have exercised ticable moment. That was the intentheir jurisdiction and given compensation of moving the Resolution. When tion which they felt they were precluded I am asked if I intend to introduce a from doing by the wording of the Act, Bill, all I have got to say is that I have the term " exorbitant" being rather too full confidence in Her Majesty's Gomuch for them. vernment, which, as I understand, came into power mainly to vindicate the auReturn ordered to be laid before the thority of Parliament. Therefore, I do House. Motion agreed to. House adjourned at a quarter past not think it at all likely that they will ignore the instruction of the House of Commons, which clearly is the mandate |