The City of Dublin had

liminary works must be carried out, | being. He did not see why there should whatever the limit of expenditure might be one rule for Ireland and another for be. There was no question upon that England. If the proposal were made point. Whether £100,000 or £200,000 with regard to England, it would be were to be spent-and he believed the certain to meet with opposition from Committee would not grudge any neces- many Members of the House, and there sary expenditure-the expenditure for was not the slightest reason why the the foundations might be safely granted Vote should pass because it was intended without infringing any rule of political for Dublin. economy. He maintained that the question before the Committee was definite and distinct-namely, that, without any delay, instruction in Art should be provided for Ireland. If the Vote were not agreed to, this would be deferred for another year, and therefore he appealed to hon. Members on both sides of the House to support the proposal of Her Majesty's Government. He felt certain that every step taken in this direction would be appreciated in Ireland, and, if not, it would be appreciated on this side of the water. He said that the Motion before the Committee was an Obstructive Motion, and one which, if carried to a division, would be supported by a minority so small as to be absolutely contemptible.

MR. DICK-PEDDIE said, that, as an architect, he could state that the difficulty in preparing an Estimate which had been suggested by the noble Lord was entirely imaginary. One of the first things that must be done before competing plans from architects were asked for was to fix the amount to be expended; and, in order to do that, all that was necessary was to know the area to be covered by the building, and the amount of accommodation to be provided in it. Furnished with these data, a surveyor or architect could in a very short time, certainly within two weeks, furnish an approximate estimate of the cost of the building which might be relied on as being within a very small percentage of the actual expenditure required. He thought, therefore, that the request of the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) was a very reasonable

one.

MR. LABOUCHERE said, the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Magniac) had argued that the Motion of the hon, and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) ought not to be put, because he said it was Obstructive. It was intended to be an Obstructive Motion, and it was a very sound one too, its object being to prevent this expendituro for the time

gone on very well until the year 1881 without a Museum of Science and Art, or, at any rate, had contrived to get on, if not very well. He was perfectly horrified at the statement made by the Vice President of the Council that this Institution was to be managed in precisely the same way as the South Kensington Museum. He considered that the South Kensington Museum was very badly managed. The hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Magniac) said that a promise had been made to establish a Museum of Science and Art in Dublin. As he supposed the House would be in existence in 1882, he proposed that the Vote should be included in the Estimates for that year, and then, when they had learned the amount to be paid for the Museum-if they did not think it too much-they would be most happy to vote the money.

VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE moved to report Progress.

Motion mado, and Question proposed, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."-(Viscount Folkestone.)

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH hoped the Committee would come to a decision upon this Vote, which had been fully discussed, and that the noble Lord would not press his Motion.

MR. BIGGAR agreed with the noble Lord the Secretary to the Treasury to the extent that the merits of the case had been well discussed. The case, however, involved a general principle; and he thought that the Government might, with the resources at their disposal and their facilities for communication with architects and other skilled persons, prepare an Estimate by the time the Committee resumed on Friday which would be satisfactory to all parties. Of course, it was perfectly well understood that no one asked that the Museum should not be built in Dublin; but, seeing that the question was to be raised again, he did not think the Mo

tion for reporting Progress was so very unreasonable.

MAJOR NOLAN hoped the Motion to report Progress would not be pressed. He pointed out to the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) that his argument that Dublin had got on hitherto without a Museum of Science and Art proved too much. That was exactly the objection made to railways and other improvements.

(17.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £16,700, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, for Works to regulate the Flood Waters of the River Shannon."

VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE moved to report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."(Viscount Folkestone.)

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHI

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR thought the appeal of the noble Lord a reasonable one, as it would not take long to get through the Vote.

MR. BIGGAR suggested as a compromise that the Government should pledge themselves not to undertake any expense in connection with the proposed works beyond simply examining the plans and selecting a design until they hoped the Committee would proceed. obtained a further Vote. It would, he MAJOR NOLAN thought the Committhought, be quite sufficient for the pre-tee might well go on with the Votes. sent to pay for the preliminary plans of the works, which would allow an Estimate to be made of the total cost of the building. This could then be submitted to the House, either before the adjournment or early next Session. The Vice President of the Council had spoken of digging the foundations of the building; but that need not be considered, because he had good reason to believe that the ground would require to be piled for a large building of this kind. No time would, therefore, be lost by consenting to the suggestion he had made.

Question put.

The Committee divided:-Ayes 8; Noes 105: Majority 97.-(Div. List, No. 235.)

Original Question again proposed.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, this was a matter upon which Irish Members had year after year made representations to the Government as to the rate at which the works had progressed; and year after year they had had assurances from the Government that they were exceedingly anxious that the works should be proceeded with with all possible expedition. He wished to know what was now the state of the works? and mentioned that the House of Commons had frequently voted considerable sums for these works; but either the Board of Works or some other authority had failed to carry them out. He hoped the noble Lord would give some assurance that there was some prospect of the money voted being actually expended.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, he understood that in his absence the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella) had repreLORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH sented that he opposed this Motion. explained, in reference to the hon. MemHe did nothing of the kind; he merely ber's statement that repeated repreobjected to the way in which the Go- sentations had been made to the Government proposed the Vote to the Com-vernment, that the first Vote for this mittee, and upon that he thought the Committee had a perfect right to express an opinion.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Mr. Biggar

work was a Supplementary Vote for 1880, so that the time during which these works had been in progress was not very great. There had been considerable difficulties in connection with

the Government had accurate informa- | much value, and had nearly been the tion on the subject. The house at cause of embroiling two friendly nations Therapia was a wooden house, built in a war. He noticed in the Vote an some few years ago, and the main- item of £5 for the cemetery at Tunis. tenance and repair were, no doubt, ex- Would it not be well, now that the pensive. The expense in the third year French Government had assumed auwas £800. With regard to the Embassy thority at Tunis, that they should take at Berlin, rents were at the present upon themselves this cost? time very high in that city. The house Vote agreed to. was hired on a 10 years' lease in 1876, and it would be impossible to make a change in that respect at present. As to Rome, the greater part of the Minister's house was rebuilt, or, rather, an addition was made to it three or four years ago at considerable expense, and the older part required this year £888. With regard to the suggestion that £20,000 should be spent in adding to the garden, there was no intention of doing anything of the sort; but he did. not think it well to sell the existing garden.

MR. RYLANDS was glad this subject had been mentioned; but he was not quite satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman. No practical means seemed to be used by the Office of Works to prevent this extraordinary expenditure on the Embassies. He could not understand why, because a large house was occupied by an Ambassador, it should get out at elbows at such a rapid rate. His hon. Friend had not alluded to Paris; but Paris and Constantinople invariably stood at the highest point of expense. Although they had a large Palace in Paris for the Ambassador, last year it was proposed to vote £500 for casual and ordinary repairs, £200 for furniture and repairs, and £450 for painting, decorating, and gilding the staircase. He did not think there was sufficient control exercised over the gentlemen who represented to the Government the necessity of these expenses, and he hoped the Office of Works would check expenditure of this character. It seemed to him that the large increase this year was scarcely justifiable, and he was not sure it would not be right to move to reduce the Vote. He would, however, only call attention to the question, so that the First Commissioner of Works might consider it, and prevent such substantial increases.

MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT remarked, that the Embassy at Constantinople, while costly, had not been of

Mr. Shaw Lefevre

Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock;

Committee to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

RIVERS CONSERVANCY AND FLOODS PREVENTION BILL.-[Lords]-[BILL 120.] (Mr. Dodson.)

NOMINATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE.

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Nomination of Select Committee [4th May].

Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Debate be further adjourned until To-morrow."

MR. BRODRICK called attention to the course the Government were pursuing with regard to this Bill. The Bill which the Government now proposed to postpone had been on the Paper 25 times-ever since the 4th of May-and on each occasion the 10 different Members who had Motions on the subject were brought down; but there seemed no intention on the part of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board to proceed with the measure. Considering the importance of the Bill, and of matters connected with it, he expressed his surprise that the right hon. Gentleman, or some other Member of the Government, did not state what the intentions of the Government were with regard to this Committee. He thought the least they could do was to give the House the earliest opportunity of considering a question which they had had on the Paper ever since the Easter Recess. He had ventured to refer to this a little earlier in the evening, when the House was in Committee of Supply, with a suggestion that this Bill should be proceeded with; but the Government showed no disposition to accede to that suggestion, and the time for doing so passed away. The Bill was being put aside in favour of things of less

importance. It had been said earlier that the Government had put a Vote down to show they were in earnest; but this Motion seemed to be put on the Paper to show the Government had no intention of seriously taking it up. The time had come when the Government might be fairly asked to state on what day they proposed to take the measure, and not to put it down continually on days when they knew there would be no chance of proceeding with it. Meanwhile, people having important interests concerned were left in a state of uncertainty, and meetings on the subject were being held all over the country. He did not wish to say more in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board; but he must say that the Government had neglected the opportunity they had of bringing on the debate this evening, when so many Members were present and prepared to take part in it. He begged to move formally that the debate be adjourned to this day fortnight. Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "To-morrow," and insert the words "Thursday 23rd June."--(Mr. Brodrick.)

VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE said, it was at that time 1 o'clock.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT, resuming, said, then in that case he was incorrect. They had, however, a right to expect that progress in Supply would have been more rapid, and the President of the Local Government Board was prepared to go on with the Bill. At this time of the Session everything, in a certain degree, must yield to Supply, and for no other reason would the Land Law (Ireland) Bill have been suspended for these two days. The urgency of Supply was paramount. It was hoped, however, that Supply would have been disposed of earlier that it was; but the hon. Member, with others, having blocked the Bill by their Notices, it could not be brought on after half-past 12. Under the circumstances, he thought the Government could not in fairness be charged with not having done their best to bring forward the debate. As to the present Motion, substantially it would tend to defeat the measure altogether, as it would not allow the opportunities that might accidentally offer of bringing it

forward.

SIR R. ASSIETON CROSS said, it was a mistake to say that his hon. Friend had blocked the Order. IIis Motion was for after the Committee had been nominated, and the Motion made was for the nomination of the Committee, so that the Notice of his hon. Friend in no way brought the Order within the half-past 12 Rule.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT said, he might be wrong; but he was informed it was not so.

Question proposed, "That the word "To-morrow stand part of the Question." SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT said, if the hon. Member was really anxious to expedite the discussion of this Bill, he showed a curious method of accomplishing his wish by proposing to postpone it for a fortnight. The hon. Member complained that the Bill did not come on; but he was one of the 10 Members who had put down Notices against the Bill being committed. He was one of those who had taken the most effectual means of preventing that which he declared he most desired. He (Sir William Harcourt) could testify, from communication with his right hon. Friend, that he was very anxious to bring the Bill on, and had great hope that that opportunity would have offered itself to-night before half-past 12; and, certainly, had it not been for Motions MR. HIBBERT said, the President of the Government had very little right to the Local Government Board was as expect-Motions from hon. Members who anxious as anyone in the House that divided in a minority of 8 against the the Bill should be brought on. It had progress of Business-Committee of Sup-been arranged to report Progress in ply might have been got through in time to bring on this Bill before half

SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS said, that it was a mistake the Notice Paper would show. Now, as to putting off the Bill for a fortnight, he agreed that would be a mistake; but he hoped that at the next Sitting the Government would endeavour to bring on the Bill if it could possibly be done. It was really a very pressing matter, and the Government could not know how strongly people felt about it.

Supply at 12 or soon after. When the
Motion to report Progress was made at