LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH agreed with the general doctrine thus laid down; but the circumstances of the present case were peculiar, and arose partly out of the action of the late Go be constructed, or what the total cost would be. Before Easter he supported the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) and the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) in protesting against an example of this kind in Eng-vernment. The Kildare Street site was land, and he hoped he should now have the support of those hon. Members in protesting against Parliament being asked to grant expenditure before they had an Estimate of the total amount. MR. RYLANDS observed, that the hon. Member did not move the reduction of the Vote. The House had again and again laid down the principle that it should not commit itself to a first Vote upon any new expenditure without having before it a full and detailed statement of the entire expenditure it was intended to incur. He might remind the noble Lord that a few years ago there was an item put down in the Votes for expenditure contemplated for buildings adjoining the present Houses of Parliament. He ventured to question this charge; and, on the ground that the Government were unable to give this full information, the Vote was withdrawn, and the building had never been erected. There a large expenditure was contemplated, and an expenditure which was admitted was not justified. Under the circumstances, unless the Committee had a full explanation of the total cost proposed to be incurred by this Vote, if his hon. Friend moved the reduction of the Vote, he should support him. purchased by the late Government on the understanding that new Science and Art Buildings were to be erected. A long controversy arose as to the site best adapted for the buildings, and hon. Members from Ireland began to express doubts whether the Government had the intention of fulfilling the pledge they had given, and it was felt that though the building had not been definitely settled as to site, a sum should be asked for in order that the work might be commenced when a decision was arrived at without delay. He was not prepared to state the exact site, or the entire cost, for until the site was settled they were unable to get out the plans upon which to base an Estimate. As soon as the site was settled, and he was informed by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Mundella) it was settled, the Board of Works would invite competition for plans, and he would be in a fair way to give full information before the Session was over. If, meantime, the Government had not placed this sum on the Estimates, they would have been open to the charge that they had no earnest intention of fulfilling the undertaking they had given. MR. BIGGAR, with regard to the item under A, the grant to the Royal Irish Society, thought it was a peculiar grant to make in aid of a cattle show, and he was not aware that any English Society received any such grant. LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH explained that this was in accordance with an agreement by which the late Government purchased the land. It was not a grant to the Society, it was simply purchase money which had to be paid for the land and buildings, and this was the final instalment. SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS was gratified to hear the voice of the hon. Member once more raised, after it had been long silent, and the more so that, in this instance, he entirely agreed with him. He thought it had long ago been agreed. that no Vote should be taken on account of any new work without Parliament knowing the estimated cost of the whole. Otherwise, they must get into the extraordinary position of committing themselves to a part of a building, and then, perhaps, be compelled to admit that, after all, that money was wasted. He trusted the noble Lord would be able to give the information desired, and would be prepared to show the cost of the whole. He really thought it was a matter never disputed, that before voting money for a new building, they should SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS asked, know the cost of the whole. Unless could not the noble Lord arrive at an the Committee had that explanation, he Estimate for the completion of the thought the Vote should be withdrawn. | work? Mr. Gorst SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS asked, was the site now settled, and the price arranged? LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH said, the price was arranged, but not the plans. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £6,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, for Expenses preparatory to and of the erection of the Museum of Science and Art in Dublin, and of additions to the School of Art in Dublin."(Mr. Gorst.) MR. GORST, in order to raise this | Department to the outskirts of the town. question in a definite form, moved to Up to this, Irish Members had criticized reduce the Vote by the sum of £3,500, the Votes in favour of economy, which the amount proposed towards the erec- was an argument in favour of the view tion of the new building. that this was a useful expenditure. MR. MUNDELLA was aware of the circumstances under which this sum of £3,500 was asked for. The first outlay arose under the late Government, in 1876, for the purchase of land for a Science and Art Museum to be erected in Dublin. The whole question was where was the site to be. The Board of Works and others proposed the Kildare Street site, and undertook to get out plans. But this was opposed by various parties who declared in favour of the Leinster Lawn site, and up to January or February it was not certain that the latter site could not be obtained. But this having been ascertained, the Government were obliged to fall back upon the Kildare Street site; but certain Irish Members came to the Government and dare Street proposal until they had made another attempt in the Easter Recess to obtain the Leinster Lawn site. They reported that they had failed to do this, and the Government immediately sent to the Board of Works to get out plans for the Kildare Street site. It was only within the last few weeks that this site was finally decided upon. It had been arranged to put out the plans for competition, and not a day would be lost in pressing the work forward. As to the sum of £3,500, it was matter of complaint last year that the Government had not shown their intention of prosecuting the work by placing a sum on the Estimates; and, therefore, a sum had been placed on the Votes this year. It would MAJOR NOLAN was quite astonished at Representatives of the late Government getting up and threatening this Vote. It was frequently brought before the late Government that an unjust state of things existed in Dublin in connection with the matter, while enormous sums were being voted for Science and Art in England, and the late Government professed anxiety to do something to remedy this grievance. Now, it ap-requested them not to press on the Kilpeared that the buildings were only deÎayed pending the preparation of specific plans. Let hon. Members look back to an earlier page and see the vast sums voted for buildings in London, for the Science and Art Department, the British Museum, and the Natural History Museum. These, together, formed a counterpart to this proposal for Dublin, because this Science and Art building took in Natural History and many things done by the British Museum; and if they would make the comparison, it would be found that London got 15 or 20 times as much as Dublin. In fact, in proportion to population, London got a very much larger sum than Ireland had been in the habit of receiving. He attached considerable importance to this object-bo necessary, by the time the plans were Science and Art-and, in view of the necessity of encouraging Irish manufacture, it was of the utmost importance to develope the means of Art education. On this account he was surprised that the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) should attack this comparatively small sum, after allowing the large English Votes to pass unchallenged. He hoped the opposition to the Vote would not be persisted in. It was a Vote of the greatest consequence to Dublin. The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) was mistaken in his view of the matter. The Science and Art Department would gain by the transfer of the Agricultural ready, that there should be the means of excavating the foundations and putting them in before the winter came on. That was the whole raison d'etre of the £3,500, and before any further demand was made the Government would be able to state to the House what would be the full cost of the whole of the buildings. He thought the Committee would see that the least they could do to redeem the pledge given to Irish Members was to ask for a sum sufficient to begin the foundations. MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR did not see why Irish Members should not be in favour of economy simply because the Vote was one to be expended in Dublin. | tion carried him, the matter was one If an Irish Parliament were sitting in that was pressed upon the late GovernDublin they would be bound to look ment by every section of Irish Members, over the expenditure of public money, and the arrangements were arrived at as and they must equally do so now; there- stated by the noble Lord and the Vice fore, he did not see much objection to the President of the Council. He rememdiscussion of this Vote. He would re-bered that for the last three Sessions it mind hon. Members that the total amount of this Vote was £25,000, or, at any rate, there was a sum of £25,000 which was to be given to enable the Royal Dublin Society to make certain arrangements. MR. MUNDELLA said, this was an engagement four years old, and made by the late Government. The greater part of it had been paid. This was no reVote at all. MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR understood exactly. This was the third and final instalment of the sum of £25,000. The first instalment was for £10,000; the second, last year, was for another £10,000; and there only remained the £5,000 to be voted this year. But, as the Estimate stood, one would imagine, looking at it cursorily, that in the £10,000 voted last year, and the £10,000 asked for now, there was no alteration in the Vote, whereas, in reality, there was an increase of £5,000. According to the arrangement there should remain but £5,000 of the £25,000 to vote this year, and the amount was £10,000 on this Vote. The contention of the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) was that this £5,000 was a new sum, which even, if necessary, ought not to be insisted upon for new buildings until the Committee had some definite Estimate of what the entire cost would prove. Here they would be launched upon an expense the end of which could not be possibly seen, and the amount which they would be hereafter called upon to vote was a matter of mere speculation. He agreed that this was not the way in which the Estimates ought to be submitted. It was no answer to be told that somebody last year asked for something more definite, to show the sincerity of the Government. This was not definite; for they did not know what it meant. The hon. and learned Member for Chatham had grounds for his objection, though he presumed he did not intend to push it to a division. MR. GIBSON said, that the matter came outside his Department in the late Government; but he was present during its discussion. So far as his recollecMr. Arthur O'Connor was urged against the Government that nothing was done to carry out the pledge to erect a Museum of Science and Art. Thelate Government were not to blame for the delay which was caused by the long controversy and negotiations with respect to the site. But this item in the Votes could be taken as a guarantee of absolute good faith, to show that the Government were prepared to begin the moment they were able, whatever site might be selected. It was desirable to begin as soon as possible, and for that object the £3,500 was asked. In an ordinary way, perhaps, that would be open to objection;.but he sincerely hoped the Committee would see their way to passing this Vote. MR. RYLANDS said, he did not dispute the argument that this was for a useful object; the building itself he did not argue against, or doubt the anxiety of the Government to carry it through. The only objection was this though they had given a pledge to do certain work, they had no right to ask the House to commit an irregularity in Committee of Supply, and take a new Vote in utter ignorance of what the full sum to be demanded would be. Judging by the experience of the past, and the Department over which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Mundella) presided, buildings of this kind more than any other had been in excess of the Estimate, and involved a much larger expenditure than was anticipated. The right hon. and learned Gentleman who last spoke as representing the late Government, did not know more than anyone else whether the cost of this new building was to be £100,000 or £150,000. There was no one to say what the expenditure was likely to be under this Vote. Let the Government give full information of the total sum they intended to spend, and the Committee would be prepared to consider it and to grant it if it proved not extravagant. The proper course, it seemed to him, was to withdraw this Vote, and he should say the same thing had it been an English Vote; and within the next few weeks, and possibly before the House rose, a Supplementary Vote could be [ing, and it was only now determined upon. asked for. If the Government were not | All that was now asked for was a sum to prepared to give an account of the ex-sweep away the existing buildings and penditure contemplated, he was not prepared to be a party to a breach of what he thought a most valuable Rule of Committee of Supply, and if carried to a division he should support the Amend ment. MR. BRODRICK said, they had reached a critical hour of the evening, and, in the interest of the second Order of the Day, which had been on the Paper 25 times, and which he hoped might be proceeded with, he moved that Progress be reported. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."-(Mr. Brodrick.) MR. CALLAN said, the subject occupying the attention of the Committee was just as important as the Order that had been down 25 times, and he did not think the discussion should be postponed because an English question happened to crop up. He was surprised to hear the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) professing ignorance of the amount proposed to be expended. He had an impression that the hon. Gentleman had the reputation of being a very glutton at reading Blue Books, and if he would refer to Reports of the last half-dozen years, he would find full statements of what was contemplated. He might promise him that the cost of the building would not exceed the Estimate; but it might do that, and still be one-tenth of the amount that the South Kensington buildings had cost. The Government had shown an earnest of fulfilling their pledge; it was desirable to take the Vote, so that they might be free to proceed in what all parties in Ireland were united upon. Question put, and negatived. "That a sum, not exceeding £6,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, for Expenses preparatory to and of the Dublin, and of additions to the School of Art in creetion of the Museum of Science and Art in Dublin." MAJOR NOLAN said, Ireland had now waited for eight years for this new build lay the foundations. If within the next 12 months the sum of £3,500 was not expended, then there would be another year's delay, and he thought Ireland had waited long enough, and if this Vote were stopped he should certainly oppose every other Science and Art Vote. MR. A. J. BALFOUR said, it seemed to him that the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Nolan) had mistaken the position of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands). First, it was understood that a site had not been fixed upon; and now the Government said it had been decided upon; and then all that the hon. the Vote should be postponed for a year, Member for Burnley desired was that or until the Government had prepared their plans, and to that he (Mr. Balfour) could see no objection. What difficulty would there be in bringing forward this Vote as a Supplementary Estimate? It would inspire the confidence of the Irish Members equally well, while it would enable the House to see to what it was committing itself, and would not be voting in the dark. LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH said, if such a course were adopted-if the Vote were postponed-he could hold out no hope of submitting the Vote in a Supplementary Estimate this Session. And for this reason-the plans of the building were to be competed for in Ireland, and it was idle to suppose that that could be done within the present Session, if that Session lasted only for a reasonable time. MR. LYULPH STANLEY said, if there was to be unlimited competition amongst Irish architects and builders, the House would be in doubt as to what the cost of the building would be. It was, he thought, clearly the duty of the Government to lay down some line as to the maximum of cost. It was too frequently the case, when ambitious architects were invited to compete, that the man who put forward the most showy designs was most likely to have his plan selected. As they could form no idea of the probable expenditure, he should support the Amendment before the Committee. MR. ANDERSON, even as an economist, could not support the hon. Momber for Burnley (Mr. Rylands). He should consider it a great mistake to do | Treasury to put a Vote upon the Paper so, because, in his opinion, there ought in order to show their earnestness, and to be no further delay in the formation it seemed to him astonishing that the of a Science and Art Museum for Ire- first complaint on the subject should land. For his own part, in sanctioning come from the hon. Member for Queen's this Vote, he did not understand that County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor). With they were entering upon a large and in- regard to the observations of the hon. definite expenditure. The amount was Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands), he only enough to get out the plans and would simply express his wish that all put the ground in order; but it would the money expended by Government save a year's delay, and give Ireland was as well laid out as that at South the assurance that the work was to be Kensington. done. MR. DILLWYN very much wished to know how his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) knew that the Committee was not about to enter upon a large expenditure in connection with this Museum? For his own part, he was inclined to think quite differently. All that he and his hon. Friends desired was that the sound principle should be adopted of not entering upon any expenditure of this kind without knowing where it was to end. It was well known that the country had been landed already in a very heavy expenditure by the Education Department, and the Committee ought to be especially on its guard with respect to any expenditure relating to the Department of the Vice President of the Council. As the matter stood, the Committee had nothing before them which would enable them to form a judgment. He trusted Irish Members would not think he was objecting to the expenditure of the money. The objection was to entering upon a Vote without having the means of forming an opinion as to the extent of the expenditure which would follow. MR. GORST was anxious, if possible, to save the Committee the necessity of dividing. All that was desired was that the Government should name a limit beyond which they would not go. When the right hon. Gentleman rose to address the Committee he understood him to say he was going to fix a definite limit; but, although he had made use of a number of well-rounded phrases, a definite limit had not been named. He therefore concluded that the Government were unable to name a sum which the expense of this new building would not exceed. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that the architect had been called in, and that the building would cover a certain space of ground; and he (Mr. Gorst) now made the suggestion that Progress be reported, in order that, when the Committee resumed at 2 o'clock, the Vice President of the Council, after consultation with the architect, might be able to say in round numbers whether the building would cost £10,000, £20,000, or £50,000. If, however, the Government would not give the Committee this idea, and ridiculed the notion that those who voted for the expenditure of the country ought to know the probable cost of this Museum, he should certainly divide the Committee. MR. MUNDELLA said, the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) seemed to think that the Committee by sanctioning this Vote would be launched upon an indefinite expenditure. There was, however, no reason to fear any-gress. thing of the kind. The architect to the Irish Board of Works had been sent for and had been made acquainted with the ground plan which was to guide him. The Committee might also rely that the work would be carried out by the Board of Works for Ireland, and not by the Department over which he had the honour to preside. He was, above all things, surprised at the opposition to this Vote on the part of Irish Members. He had been so pressed with reference to this matter that he had besought the Mr. Anderson MR. MAGNIAC hoped the Government would not agree to report ProA pledge had been given to the Irish Members that the Irish people should have the same facilities for instruction in Art as the people of England, and therefore he had been astonished at an Irish Member objecting to this Vote. It appeared to him that the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman had been perfectly plain, notwithstanding the opinion of the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) to the contrary, because it was very clear that if there was to be a building at all the foundations and pre |