Mr. KAZEN. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. STANFORD. Thank you, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. The gentleman from Utah, Mr. Burton.

Mr. BURTON. Mr. Stanford, you mentioned in your testimony that the people of Jackson County approved this $3.7 million bond issue by a 2-to-1 vote. Was this a representative vote, do you think, I mean, did you have a big turnout?

Mr. STANFORD. I would have to ask the county judge to answer that question, sir.

Mr. BURTON. Why don't we ask him. Judge?

Mr. THEDFORD. Let me ask the county clerk. He held the election. Is the county clerk here?

COUNTY CLERK. I am sorry, I could bring the records up. If I would review them I would get that information.

Mr. THEDFORD. If you would be so kind as to get the exact amount for the Congressman, and we can present those a little later.

Mr. BURTON. Put those in the record, and I ask that they be inserted in the record.1

Mr. JOHNSON. Hearing no objection it will so be ordered.

Mr. BURTON. And I would like permission to ask Mr. Burleigh a couple of more questions, if I may, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. JOHNSON. Just a moment. We have another question or two here from the staff director, Mr. McFarland.

Mr. MCFARLAND. Mr. Stanford, this question is in connection with your statement that "the board is prepared to assume financial responsibility for repayment to the United States for reimbursable project costs that are beyond the ability of the local interests to bear." Now, as I understand it, the water rates are intended to be sufficient to repay the full costs. Now, is this just simply underwriting on the part of the State of Texas or do you actually expect to contribute?

Mr. STANFORD. We anticipate contributing, sir, as needed.

Mr. MCFARLAND. Well, then, is it not your understanding that the water rates for the municipal and industrial water will be sufficient and adequate to fully repay the costs with interest?

Mr. STANFORD. Oh, I would certainly think so. However, the immediate market may not be sufficient to repay them and the State is prepared to underwrite that portion. I think, however, I think on the water rates question Mr. Burleigh may have a clearer picture of the overall costs.

Mr. MCFARLAND. Mr. Burleigh, can you

Mr. JOHNSON. Can you throw a little light on this?

Mr. BURLEIGH. I beg the Chair's pardon, I didn't hear the question. Mr. MCFARLAND. The question, Mr. Burleigh, is this: Is it intended that the municipal and industrial water rates be sufficient to fully repay with interest the entire reimbursable costs allocated to these purposes?

Mr. BURLEIGH. Yes.

Mr. MCFARLAND. Then the participation by the State of Texas is simply an underwriting or a guarantee that this will be done? Mr. BURLEIGH. Yes.

1 See p. 98.

Mr. MCFARLAND. And the probability is that there actually will be no actual financial contribution from the State?

Mr. BURLEIGH. We have, on the basis of the best economic studies we can get, Mr. McFarland, we are convinced that the water revenues, themselves, will pay out the reimbursable costs of this project. If they don't then there is the backstop of the State of Texas' contingent.

Mr. MCFARLAND. Mr. Chairman, one reason I asked that question is the fact that, based on the Bureau's studies, the actual water cost is around 5 cents per thousand gallons, and when we are talking about building, in other parts of the country, desalting plants and paying 30 and 50 and 60 cents a thousand gallons, it seems to me that this is a reasonable cost that should be borne by the users, themselves.

Mr. BURLEIGH. Right; it's a reasonable charge.

Mr. BURTON. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. JOHNSON. The gentleman from Utah.

Mr. BURTON. In connection with counsel's questions, what does this mean, Mr. Stanford, over here on page - well, it's your next to the last page. They are not numbered.

Mr. STANFORD. On the top, sir?

Mr. BURTON. Where you said, "The remainder of the reimbursable costs of stage 1, approximately $22 million, would be participated in by the Water Development Board"?

Mr. STANFORD. This is a balance we feel of what could be paid in the local area at the beginning of the project. However, the Texas Water Development Fund presently at the level of $400 million must be obtained by bonds and those bonds must be repaid. Now, we anticipate through the 40 years' repayment schedule that we would be able to repay those bonds from water sales. I might also indicate that by a statute the State is prevented from being in competition with a local district for the sale of water. In other words, if we participated in the project of $22 million and the Jackson County Flood Control District participated in the project to $3.7 million, the Jackson County Flood Control District would have first chance to serve customers.

Our position in the future by statute would be to sell water to the Jackson County Flood Control District in that we cannot, the State cannot be a retailer.

The water development fund and the water development board statutes are designed to assist the local entities and to complement them but not to be in competition with.

Mr. BURTON. I see. Thank you.

Mr. JOHNSON. You mentioned ground water in your statement. Now rice is about the only crop that you grow here that consumes water as a crop; right?

Mr. STANFORD. In this particular area.

Mr. JOHNSON. Your cotton here is dependent upon rainfall? You do not irrigate cotton here?

Mr. STANFORD. I am going to have to defer to the irrigation man from the Bureau of Reclamation.

Mr. BURLEIGH. The water is on rice, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. JOHNSON. Rice is the only crop that is irrigated here, your other crops are not?

Mr. BURLEIGH. The basic irrigated crop here I will ask Mr. Koop or some others if small quantities of water go on any other crop.

Mr. JOHNSON. Now, in our county they are all irrigated. That is why I asked this question here.

Mr. THEDFORD. Mr. Chairman, if I might be able to answer that question, having been here some 36 years, right here in the county, the basic crop that is irrigated here in the county is rice. You will find various scattered farms but very, very few where there might be some irrigation for cotton, but they are so scattered until I would say that they shouldn't even be mentioned. But basically it is for rice, and we are having problems even getting water for rice.

Mr. JOHNSON. You spoke somewhat about return flows. Now, this is pretty close to the coastal waters here, and you mentioned return flows, reclaiming some of it.

Mr. STANFORD. Yes, sir. Your question is for what use?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. Now, how would you do that here?

Mr. STANFORD. Would you care to answer that? This is Mr. Seward. Mr. JOHNSON. Would you identify yourself?

Mr. SEWARD. Lewis Seward, assistant chief engineer. Most of the return flows, Congressman, come from irrigation, up in this area here, that is diverted from the Colorado River. And these, the only return flows that we are speaking of, are agricultural above this reservoir. There isn't any substantial municipal or industrial return flows that come into the reservoir. There is an irrigated rice area up here that does have return flows.

Mr. JOHNSON. What quality of water is in the return flows?

Mr. SEWARD. It's good quality water. The Colorado River water, itself, is good quality, and the rice doesn't seem to affect it too much as to quality for the return flows.

Mr. JOHNSON. Now, that water will eventually wind up in these reservoirs?

Mr. SEWARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. That is all I have at the present time.

Are there any other questions?

(No response.)

Mr. JOHNSON. If not, we want to thank you for giving us your

statement.

Mr. STANFORD. Thank you, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. Your next witness, sir.

Mr. THEDFORD. We are glad to have with us this morning our State senator, Senator William N. Patman, and also I see sitting in our congregation our representative, Representative Newman. Mr. Newman, we are glad to have you with us this morning.

Senator Patman.

Mr. KAZEN. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. KAZEN. May I introduce Senator Patman to the members of the committee?

I have been very fortunate to have served in the Texas Senate with Senator Patman. I consider him to be one of the most able and one of the most dedicated public servants that we have in Texas. And as you know, he is the son of our colleague, Wright Patman, from Texarkana.

It gives me a great deal of pleasure to have him here before this committee, and I am sure that the committee, likewise, Senator, is very happy to have you here.

Mr. PATMAN. Thank you, Chick. I certainly enjoyed the privilege of serving with you in the State senate, and we appreciate your great service in the Congress.

I might say that I represent some 14 counties in Texas and serve with Congressman Pickle and Congressman Young in some counties jointly.

STATEMENT OF STATE SENATOR WILLIAM N. PATMAN

Mr. PATMAN. I am very grateful for the opportunity of presenting some testimony here today. My district takes in an area between the Brazos River and the Nueces River, and all of those river basins or portions of them are in my 14 counties.

We are told that our future economic growth largely depends upon not only water supplies but navigational facilities, and as you will notice from the testimony and the maps that have been presented to you, we have been provided by the Corps of Engineers with excellent navigational facilities, and it is this fresh water supply that we are seeking at this hearing.

During my service in the State senate, and incidentally, Jackson County is my home county, we have had occasion to consider this project several times by amending the statute which created the Jackson County Flood Control District and, of course, the Texas Water Development Board, and I think I can say from my judgment that the people of Jackson County do support this project. It will be the only major reservoir between the cities of Houston and Corpus Christi, and not only will contribute significantly because of the fresh water available for municipal and industrial purposes, but it will also, of course, provide for recreational facilities that are badly needed in this area.

It's an outstanding example, we feel, of the cooperation of all levels of government, from our Jackson County Flood Control District through the Texas Water Development Board, your own U.S. Bureau of Reclamation and the Congress.

The people of Jackson County have, as has been mentioned, voted for this project by an overwhelming majority, and while I don't know the exact number, what percentage of registered voters voted in that election, it certainly does have and enjoy good support here in this county, if I may reiterate that.

We feel that the authorization and construction of this project will assure industrial and urban growth that will fully use the project water supply and will provide water and recreational revenues adequate to repay such costs.

Other witnesses have testified and will testify to our need for the project water supply and the recreational advantages that the proj ect will provide. We are willing to assume the financial and other obligations which will result from project construction. The State of Texas recommends the project and as you have heard is ready to provide financial assistance to Jackson County in repaying the project

costs.

The Secretary of the Interior has recommended that the project be authorized, and I sincerely hope that this subcommittee and the full committee of the House on Interior and Insular Affairs will recommend the project be authorized.

Mr. JOHNSON. We want to thank you, Senator Patman, for your very fine statement, and we recognize your father as a real leader in the Congress of the United States. He has had a long distinguished career there and we hope he remains with us for a long time to come.

In this area here, when you see the land so flat and you talk about cotton and corn and other crops that you grow here, I can't understand why you don't use a little water for irrigation other than for rice, but I presume your rainfall is sufficient to produce the other

crops.

Mr. PATMAN. We are learning more and more about it, sir, and I think perhaps we will be using irrigation in our other crops, like cotton and grain, at certain peak times of growth.

Mr. JOHNSON. You have no irrigated pastures here that accompany your livestock industry?

Mr. PATMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. Do they take it from ground water?

Mr. PATMAN. We irrigate 200 or 300 acres over in Jackson County right now, in the eastern part. They are improved grasses. And I think that is done in many areas in the county. If you can get that water on there and have good weather and fertilize, you can really get a good result.

Mr. JOHNSON. And water and fertilizer can bring a lot out of the ground.

The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Kazen.

Mr. KAZEN. No questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. JOHNSON. The gentleman from South Dakota, Mr. Berry.

Mr. BERRY. I have no questions. I just want to welcome Senator Patman. As I told him a while ago, his parents and we lived next door to each other in the same apartment development for 2 or 3 years before his mother became ill.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. JOHNSON. The gentleman from Utah, Mr. Burton.

Mr. BURTON. I have no questions. Thank you.

Mr. JOHNSON. We want to thank you, Senator, for being here with us this morning.

Is there any further statement by the gentleman serving in the lower house in the State of Texas?

Mr. NEWMAN. I am Terry Newman, from Cuero, and I do serve on the conservation and reclamation committee in the State legislature, and I can certainly vouch for what Senator Patman has had to say, and it certainly has the lower house's cooperation, and it certainly looks to me like Jackson County here is doing things, and I certainly think their leadership down here is to be complimented. I am sure you gentlemen will receive full cooperation from Jackson County.

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you.

Mr. KAZEN. Mr. Chairman, I might add that Representative Newman is a very knowledgeable person in water problems in Texas because of the position that he holds on that committee. By virtue of the position which he holds he is a very valuable man for the State of Texas in water matters. I have also had the privilege of serving with him in the Texas Legislature, and I can assure you that he speaks from a very good background.

Mr. BERRY. Will the gentleman yield, Mr. Chairman?