the Governor of Wisconsin will allow us the simple courtesy of

filing an answer.

Governor: You may. You may draft it into the record here. Mr. Aylward: We simply ask an opportunity accorded to the lowest criminal, that of filing an answer.

Governor: This is not a criminal action.

Mr. Aylward: Then the more reason to give us an opportunity for a few minutes to file our answer.

Governor: You are simply trying to delay this hearing. If you desire to dictate your answer into the record you may do

So.

Mr. Aylward: Will you allow me to have a few moments conference with our client?

Governor; Yes, sir.

J

Hearing suspended while Mr. Ekern and attorney confer with reference to answer.

Herman L. Ekern, being first duly sworn on oath, says he has read the affidavit to Harry C. Wilbur, annexed to the order to show cause and that he denies the charges made in said affidavit and alleges that he has at all time complied with Section 1966y of the Statutes of the State of Wisconsin and all other provisions of law relating to his duties as Commissioner of Insurance of the State of Wisconsin.

HERMAN L. EKERN.

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 8th day of January, A. D., 1913.

JOHN A. AYLWARD,

Notary Public, Dane County, Wisconsin.

MR. GIFFORD, being first duly sworn on oath was examined by Governor McGovern, and testified as follows:

Mr. Aylward: I suggest to your Excellency that it be entirely proper that the proceedings up to this time be read.

Governor: The suggestion is denied; it has been an open meeting all the time.

Mr. Aylward: I wish again to repeat as a matter of record that the commissioner has not had any opportunity to confer with his

attorneys or to confer with his witnesses or in any other way to prepare for this hearing. That he is obliged to go into the hearing without any preparation or consultation with his attorneys or his witnesses and is unable at this time to obtain the witnesses to properly present his defense.

Governor: Q. Mr. Gifford, you are a citizen of the city of Madison?

A. I am.

Q. You are proprietor of the Avenue Hotel?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You know Mr. Herman L. Ekern, the Commissioner of Insurance of Wisconsin?

A. I do.

Q. How long have you known him?

A. A matter of six or eight years.

Q. Did you receive a telephone message from him on

Years day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time of day was it?

A. In the neighborhood of noon or one o'clock.

New

Q. Will you state what was said at the time? State what Mr. Ekern said?

A. He asked me if the two rooms on the office floor were re served for, I think Monday and Tuesday. I wouldn't be positive whether he said the dates at that time. I told him they were He said I want you to hold them; I want them for Monday and Tuesday of next week.

not.

Q. That was the 6th and 7th of the present month?

A. Yes, Sir.

Q. Was anything said as to the purpose for which they were

to be held?

A. No, sir.

Q. When did you learn first what purpose the rooms were to

be put to?

A. On Monday.

Q. How did you learn?

A. Mr. Ekern told me they were for Mr. Johnson.

Q. Did he telephone or come to the hotel?

A. He came to the hotel.

Q. And by Mr. Johnson whom do you mean?

A. Mr. L. L. Johnson, candidate for speaker.

Q. Have those rooms been in use Monday and Tuesday?
A. Yes, Sir.

Q. In what way?

A. They were held as headquarters for Mr. Johnson.

Mr. Aylward: We object to the Governor, who is also conducting this examination, suggesting to the witness the answer to the question.

Governor: Mr. Gifford, what office, if any, did Mr. Johnson seek at that time?

A. He was candidate for speaker of the Assembly.

Q. What is the fact as to whether or not he was a memberelect of the assembly?

A. I suppose so.

Q. What conference did you have with Mr. Ekern Monday morning, the 6th?

A. Well, not any more than what I have said.

Q. What is the fact as to whether the rooms were fitted up in any way?

A. They were just as they always are. A sitting room and a smaller room off it. There were just a few more chairs added or I arranged to add more chairs but they never called for them. Nobody seemed to go into the rooms at all.

Q. At whose request did you put in the added chairs?

A. Mr. Ekern told me it might be necessary to have 30 or 40. He told me at his office the day after he had telephoned to me. I called at his office and asked him with regard to the furniture. He said it was all right, possibly a few more chairs could be added.

Q. What conversation did you have with him then concerning the purpose to which the rooms were to be put?

Mr. Aylward: I object to that.

Governor: Has anyone been in those rooms during those two days?

Mr. Gifford: How do you mean?

Governor: Anyone at all?

I

A. I couldn't say that anybody had been in the room. don't know whether Mr. Ekern even went in. Mr. Johnson was there.

Q. By Mr. Johnson do you mean Mr. L. L. Johnson?

4-S. J. Ap.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did Mr. Johnson first call there?

A. Monday morning.

Q. Alone or with someone?

A. I am not sure whether he was accompanied by Mr. Ekern or not. I couldn't say whether he was alone or not or whether there was anyone standing outside, I don't know.

Q. What is the fact as to whether Mr. Johnson was present when you had your conversation with Mr. Ekern the second of January?

A. No he was not.

Q. When again did you see Mr. Ekern?

A. Not until Monday morning.

Q. And you have given the substance of the conversation you had with him at that time?

A. Yes that is all the conversation there was.

Q. And did you see him afterward that day?

A. No, I haven't seen him from that time until here this morning.

Q. Didn't you see him Monday evening?

A. I don't recall seeing him since.

Q. What is the fact as to whether those rooms were open yes terday and Monday as a headquarters? Were the rooms openMr. Aylward: I object to the question as calling for a conclusion as to whether open for headquarters or not.

Q. Have the rooms been paid for?

A. No, sir.

Q. Are they closed now?

A. Yes, they were closed last night. Mr. Johnson telephoned about ten o'clock and told me to close them and he would call

today and settle for them.

Q. You had other political headquarters in your hotel?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Nye was there.

On cross examination, by Mr. Aylward, Mr. Gifford testified:
Q. When did you learn, Mr. Gifford, that you would be de

sired as a witness here?

A. Why I haven't been told that I would be used as

witness.

Q. Who was it consulted you with respect to your transactions

it ? with Mr. Ekern? Who interviewed you with respect to

A. The Governor requested me to call and see him last Monday.

Q. And requested you with respect to the testimony which you have now given?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?

A. Monday evening about nine-thirty.

Q. Called you to his office for that purpose?

A. The Colonel

Q. If I understand you, Mr. Gifford, all there was to it was that Mr. Ekern telephoned you and asked you if those two rooms referred to were in use or not?

A. Either in use or reserved for those days.

Q. You told him they were not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He asked you to hold them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Ekern had used those before, those two particular rooms?

A. I think Mr. Ekern had used them; they had been used as headquarter rooms.

Q. That was all that occurred at that first meeting?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The next morning you went to his office?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you asked him what changes or what furniture he wanted in the room? Was that it?

A. Yes, sir. He said he didn't think it would be necessary to change anything but thought it would be well to arrange for a few more chairs.

Q. That is all there was of the second conversation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Following that did you see him or speak with him a third time?

A. Not until Monday morning. He called and told me the rooms were for Mr. Johnson.

Q. He didn't pretend to make any arrangements or suggestions or do anything further than you have related?

A. Nothing more.

Q. Following that you say Mr. Johnson dropped in and took the rooms?