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conversation without invitation, or with invitation ?

A. Pardon me just a moment. Is that related specifically to former conversations with Mr. Ekern?

Q. Any former meetings and conversations between the Governor and Mr. Ekern?

A. I cannot recall that question. Offhand I should say yes, but I am not sure.

Q. This is the only time you recall of such incident, is it? A. That is the only time I definitely recall, yes, sir.

Q. Now, you stated, Mr. Wilbur, that you made this complaint on your own initiative. Was it you that got Mr. Belitz out of the revisor's office to go and examine the law with respect to complaints of this kind and how they should be framed?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You had that control over Mr. Belitz, did you?
A. Oh, I had no control over Mr. Belitz whatever.
Q. Did you do that at the Governor's request?
A. No, sir. I will explain that.

Q. If you will pardon me, I will conduct the examination and you will answer my questions.

A. All right, sir.
Q. Did you invite Mr. Belitz to do that work?

A. I asked Mr. Belitz to go to the law library and meet Senator Wilcox there.

Q. Did you do that without the Governor's knowledgs?
A. Oh, absolutely.

Q. Absolutely. You took that responsibility. You heard Mr. Belitz's testimony with respect to his conversations with the Governor on this matter, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And as to how he and the Governor debated what kind of a complaint should be made and how it should be drawn, you heard that, did you?

A. Yes, sir. That is, I heard Mr. Belitz's testimony.

Q. And you heard the advice he gave to the Governor with respect to the form of the complaint ?

A. I heard his testimony regarding that.

Q. And with respect to what kind of a hearing should be had?

A. I heard his testimony regarding that.

Q. And you heard the Governor's statement on the former hearing, did you, that you were his clerk and that you did consult with him with respect to the drawing of this complaint, did you not?

A. No, sir. I heard his statement that of course we had talked it over.

Q. That you talked it over with him?

A. Yes, sir. Not the drawing of the complaint. The en tire matter.

Q. With respect to making charges ?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You say that there were rumors that you heard prior to the 6th of January. Who started the rumors to you?

A. They were general rumors.
Q. I ask you who stated them to you?
A. They were general rumors.
Q. Who stated them to you?

Mr. Wilbur: Mr. President, might I be allowed to answer that question ?

Mr. Aylward: That is what I am trying to get.

The Chairman: Is there any good reason why you do not wish to answer the question? Mr. Wilbur: I am endeavoring to answer it Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Is there any personal reason why you not care to answer the question ?

Mr. Wilbur. Oh, no, I am not declining to answer the ques tion. I am asking permission to answer it.

The Chairman: you may answer it.

Mr. Aylward:

Q. Give me the names of some of the parties who sta the rumors to you?

A. There were general rumors about the Capitol.
Q. I am asking you, Mr. Wilbur-
A. (interrupting) I am trying to answer your question.

Q. Well, then, you can answer it in this way: Can you me the names of any one, any person, from whom you ! or through whom you heard these rumors ?

you heard A. No, sir.

Q. You called the newspaper men to the Governor's office on the evening of January the 6th, did you not ?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. About twelve o'clock at night?

A. No, I should say it was about ten—or shortly before twelve.

Q. And you gave them the Governor's ultimatum to Mr. Ekern, did you?

A. I gave them my version of what occurred in the Governor's office.

Q. And the Governor, as you gave it to the newspapers at that time, put his ultimatum, not on the ground of what Ekern had one, but in these words: “You must close the L. L. Johnson headquarters in the Avenue Hotel to-night and thereafter refrain from any participation in the speakership contest now in progress, or when the legislature meets next Wednesday I will see to it that Wisconsin has a new insurance commissioner." The Governor put it up to Ekern that he must do those things or he would “take his head off," did he not?

A. Not the way it is stated there, no, sir.
Q. You say it is not the way it is stated here?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was it in the way in which you just stated it?
A. Practically, yes, sir.

Q. That is, that he would remove him from office unless, first, he would close the L. L. Johnson headquarters at the Avenue Hotel that night.

(A. Unless he would close the headquarters which he had opened in the Avenue Hotel.

Q. That was the L. L. Johnson headquarters, was it not? A. Yes.

Q. So that was the first condition. The second condition was, he would remove him unless he also refrained from any participation in the speakership contest? That was the second condition?

A. Any further participation.

Q. Yes, any further participation. The Governor put his threat on those two grounds, did he?

A. The Governor gave Mr. Ekern his choice.

Q. I didn't ask you that. I asked you if you had such information, would you feel called upon to make complaint?

Q. Have you seen the expense account that the Governor Q. And in that do you notice that the Governor, in his per

Senator Browne: Mr. Chairman, I wish to make objection immaterial. If we go into the Governor's expense account we to that testimony as being wholly irrelevant, incompetent and

Q. I say he delivered his ultimatum based on those two grounds, did he?

A. He made the statement as I gave it.
Q. That you understood was his ultimatum ?

A. I didn't understand anything about it. I understood it just as he said it.

Q. That is, he would “take his head off” unless he did those two things?

A. Yes, sir,

Q. It was not for what he had done, but if he did not dothose two things he would remove him?

A. For what he had done.
Q. What?
A. For what he had done.
Q. Is that the way he put it?
A. Well, that is the effect of it.

Q. Well, now, Mr. Wilbur, if you say you did this on your own initiative, I assume if you knew of any other high official in the state that was violating the laws of the state you also feel obliged to make complaint against him, would you not?

A. Probably, yes, sir.
Q. It was not any special grudge against Ekern!
A. Oh, no.

Q. For instance, if you knew that the Governor persistently, in the last campaign, violated the Corrupt Practices Act of this state you would feel called upon to make complaint to the legislature, would you?

A. I have no information.

A. Yes, I might. filed with the secretary of state?

A. Yes, sir. sonal account

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could go into every one else's expense account, and I think there are probably expense accounts here that maybe the counsel would not care to go into on his side.

Mr. Aylward: I will say, in respect to that, I would be very pleased to have the senator or the senate go into any expense account I have ever filed, and I would be very pleased to have them go into our last political expense account. It would please me highly. I invite them to do it.

Senator Browne: Well, they may take the opportunity to do it, because I know you are considerably behind, and according to the Corrupt Practices law, you cannot spend money and incur indebtedness unless you have it in the treasury.

Mr. Aylward: I want to say to the senator that you cannot connect me with that expense account at any place or any point, and I welcome an investigation and would like to see the Corrupt Practice Act of this state enforced. .

Senator H. C. Martin: I raise the point of order this is entirely out of order, this colloquy between the senator and the counsel.

The Chairman: The senator from the 21st has the floor. Senator Browne: I did not mean any insinuation against counsel, but simply the democratic party.

Senator Randolph: I move you that the committee of the whole do now rise and report progress.

The Chairman: Gentlemen, you have heard the motion of the senator from the 15th that the committee do now rise. Those in favor of the motion will say ave; those opposed no. The ayes have it, and the committee will rise. The president will take the Chair.

(Lieutenant Governor Morris took the chair). Senator Scott: Mr. President.. Senator Bishop : Mr. Chairman, I move we do now adjourn.

Senator Scott: Mr. President, will you allow the committee to report?

Senator Bishop: Excuse me. I will withdraw my motion. Senator Scott: I have the honor to report further progress, Mr. President.

Thereupon pursuant to motion duly made, seconded and carried, the committee adjourned until February 6th, 1913, at ten o'clock A. M.

12-S. J. Ap.

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